A question to those who think Liston outboxes Tyson, stops him late

watch his fight against scrap iron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MM9N2H5rOg

 

i dont think liston outboxes tyson.
liston would fight of the back foot slightly, using his jab and then would come forward with explosive combos.

result? i dont know, but i dont think anyone could have done a better job than a buster, he was awesome than night!

 

I'm not supremely confident about Liston knocking out Tyson. In fact, they're two fighters I rank very highly H2H at heavyweight. However,

1/ Not being able to find Clay with his jab is completely irrelevant. Clays footwork and superb use of range enabled him to evade Listons jab. Tyson would fight Liston the only way he knew how, swarming forward. It's not inconceivable to imagine that despite Listons lack of hand speed, his superb timing would enable him to land on a target moving towards him.

2/ Liston may not fight off the backfoot but he's very patient, very scientific, and will not maraud forward mindlessly.

I don't think Liston will be keen on the inside/mid-range battle, and thus wrap Tyson up if he's getting the worst of it - But I agree that the speed difference at midrange will be a massive factor. They're both top finishers, but Liston will surely be much less timid than any of Tysons opponents during his prime, and I think this will be a factor also.

Don't forget George Foreman said Liston was the only man that ever made him box - How will Tyson handle being forced to box? Because I think he will have to at points.

What is your prediction btw?

 

Liston was a technical destroyer who set his punches up. I think he would respect Tyson's power and pick his spots.


Tyson didn't have much come back in him. His aggression slowed down after round 5 or so, and he never got off the floor to win a match.

When Tyson was rocked, it seems like he did not fight back as hard as Cleveland Williams did. I site the Bruno, Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis fights as examples.

Tyson seemed to struggle a bit vs the best big fighters he fought. Good jabs gave him fits.

While Liston was much slower, he was a skilled in or out fighter. Some big guys are not so hot as in-fighters. Liston was not one of them.

Who wins is hard to say. Both guys seemed to lack some intangibles.

 

Liston would use Tysons forward momentum against him. He would back up just enough to keep Tyson walking into a meatgrinder and make him pay for every step forward he took. If Tyson cornered him he would switch his attack to the inside where Tyson dosnt quite have the answers.

It would be a slugfest alright but it would unfold on Listons terms which would probably be the deciding factor. If two big punchers of comparable ability have it out, my money is on the guy going backward every time.

 

umm...Big Cat and Nino Valdez?

 

Tyson had great footwork yes, although you can't argue he was as light on his feet as Ali! The difference is that Ali maintained a range against Liston, Tyson would have to cut it. I'm not criticizing Tyson, I'm just saying the demands of the fight would be different and I don't think it's a fair comparison.

Don't forget Liston gave up handspeed to almost all his opponents, those that I've seen anyway. They weren't as fast as Tyson, but Liston was proof that despite being a little heavy on his legs, and having slow hands, that timing could neutralize speed.

A Tyson win is certainly conceivable. If there is no early-mid stoppage it could come down to who has the most heart, because they will both have sustained damage, there can be no doubt about that. The question of who has the greater will is an interesting one.

 

I see Liston boxing off the backfoot at moments in many of his fights, not overly so, but he backs off when he needs to just to give himself space. He BOXES, but he's an aggressive destroyer so he's always re-asserting himself, and he throws powerful punches while giving himself space. Against Williams the first time he lands powerful jabs while stepping back.

So, I simply dont agree with the premise that he didn't box in 4 directions (side to side, forward AND BACK !). Even against Patterson (first fight) he hops back to give himself room to unload the heavy artillery.

Likewise, Douglas should be credited with standing his ground more so than many of the guys Tyson had destroyed. Spending too much time backing straight up and retreating is not a winning strategy against Tyson. Douglas boxed Tyson but was very assertive too, not strictly boxing "off the back foot" in a over-cautious manner.

Liston wouldn't box like Douglas, he'd box like Sonny Liston, and that means at first sign of hurting Tyson he'd be going for the kill, so he'd be unloaded big punches throughout. But in the face of Tyson's ferocious assault I'd expect to see Liston boxing at range quite a bit, giving himself space, covering up and maneuvering out of trouble, AND knocking Tyson back and asserting himself. It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

 

I just watched Liston-Patterson 1 again, and just as I had remembered Liston spends the whole 2 minutes hopping in and out of range. Against Floyd Patterson he is not averse to taking the back foot to give himself space and evade Patterson's advances.
Liston knew how to box, and he understood how side-stepping and sliding/hopping back were sometimes necessary to dominate the entire ring and take the impetus away from an opponent.

Against an opponent like Patterson, who was fast but short in reach, Liston did the sensible thing to take fullest advantage of his great reach. Against the short-armed fast, aggressive and dangerous Tyson, I think Liston would be moving in all directions even more so. The only guys he stormed straight towards were fighters who he had contempt for, ability-wise (eg. Patterson second-time around), or guys who were running/dancing (Clay, Machen), or men who were most effective at the long range (Williams). That accounts for most the guys he fought, admittedly. But even in many of those fights he utilized backward and lateral movement when it worked to his advantage.

Against Whitehurst, Wepner, Scrap Iron Johnson, you can see it's not simply forward-forward in a straight line all the time. Liston's movement and style reminds me a bit of Hagler. Aggressive, assertive and heavy-handed, but subtle educated boxing movement, adaptable when need be.

 

You can't use Valdez as any kind of measuring stick. he was washed up when he fought Liston. It was his 2nd last fight.
(Besides, who was Valdez in the greater scheme of things anyway?)

 

Liston would have ko'ed Tyson early, in the first 2 or 3 rounds, or not at all.

 

Don't let Seamus read this post, he might explode.