A thought on the really big heavyweights

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Musashi, Oct 26, 2010.


  1. Musashi

    Musashi Member Full Member

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    One common point I see made on these and other forums, as well as in some actual publications, is a complaint about the size of certain heavyweights. Specifically, that the only reason that guys like the Klitschkos and to a lesser extent (or greater, depending) Valuev, have any success, is due to their size. The argument usually is that "if they were smaller, they would be nobodies."

    This argument misses a couple of key points. For one, any "IF" argument is just speculation anyway and basically amounts to intellectual masturbation. The fact is, these guys ARE much larger than most of their opponents and have developed styles to maximize the effectiveness of their frames. Whether or not they could be successful if smaller is irrelevant, because they CAN'T be smaller.

    The other point is that if they were smaller, they wouldn't be the same fighter. Who says they would fight exactly the same way they do now? Who says Wlad or Vitali would stand up straight, lean away from punches, and in Vitali's case, keep his hands low? That would be silly to do if they were say, 6'1" or 6'2". They would be smaller, but also quicker, so doubtless they would have different styles and different physical tools. This leads us back to point number 1, that the whole argument is meaningless.

    People love to trash Valuev, who is of course, not a great fighter by any stretch of the imagination. But to say all he has is his size? Well, sure, but that's not the point! If he were 6'3", he would have a completely different skill set. He's slow because he's huge, not huge because he's slow. People seem to miss that. He has managed to fight on pretty much even terms with a host of top ten heavies over the past 5 years or so, win or lose. Limited skill set? Sure. Slow? Sure. But, he fights the way he does because that's what makes sense for his size. Different size, he would be a different person, and the whole thing wouldn't matter.

    Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe got a bit of this treatment back in the 90's, but as that era has slipped by, boxing historians and fans have given more credit to their skill sets and resumes, rather than just saying, "they only won because they were big." They utilized the tools at their disposal with more effectiveness than most other heavyweights in their era. That should be what counts. In a decade, we will likely judge the Klitschkos the same way.

    There have always been heavies much larger than their contemporaries. Harry Wills, Jim Jeffries, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera. All were contenders or champions, but none were sublimely skilled (maybe Wills to a certain extent). They won and lost with the skills at their disposal. Smaller bodies, maybe would have led to more losses, or maybe would have led to quicker and more athletic frames and better chances against the best. No way to really tell.

    "They only win because they're big" is a tired excuse and missing the point. The modern giant heavyweights win because they are better than their opposition. And when they lose, it's because they aren't the better man on that particular night. They use their size as a tool, not as an excuse.
     
  2. Marry Lerchant

    Marry Lerchant Member Full Member

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    Oct 20, 2010
    On point :good



    Your Marry
     
  3. Arcane

    Arcane One More Time Full Member

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    Klitschkos are big but they are very skilled big men, Valuev is just soo big that he's managed to plod his way through his career, skill wise he's up there with the likes of Arreola
     
  4. Filthy McNasty

    Filthy McNasty Punchy Old Pug Full Member

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    Good points, well written post.
     
  5. DLT

    DLT Member Full Member

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    I hear what your saying. I'm not sure your 100% on point though. I guess it coems down to the whole p4p argument.

    In boxing there are divisions, based on weight - these divisions also have the effect of partitioning for height as well. At heavy you have guys from 5' 10 - all the way up to 7'.

    You just dont get that kind of discrepency elsewhere - so the argument is, that the klits, or whoever else, arent really tested on their boxing skill or athletisism, because the singular physical advantage thay have, height, means that, as you say, standing tall & leaning back is all they have to do for defence.

    Of course, they dont have to do this, they can get in there and mix it up, wlad used to do this, and well we saw what used to happen there. So thats what they do, hence the reputation for boring - safety first fighters.

    To sum up, boxing is a great sport because unlike others, say basketball, if your 5' 5", you can still be a great, because of the partitioning, you dont have to fight someone >6' 3". Its about skill.

    D
     
  6. Ponysmallhorse

    Ponysmallhorse Small but proud Full Member

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    Do not insult Mexican warrior. He is shitty boxer but at least he can name him self one. Valuev on other hand is just nature's mistake.
     
  7. Doc (aka Meke)

    Doc (aka Meke) Active Member Full Member

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    in too many words, but :deal

    just extend that argument to P4P and stupid shrinking and enlarging argument, and we are done!
     
  8. kostya by ko

    kostya by ko Boxing Addict

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    ditto. posts like these is why I log into this site
     
  9. he insults himself by coming into the ring so out of shape.
     
  10. Karl Jade

    Karl Jade Active Member Full Member

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    .....And throwing 1000 punches per fight, obviously horrifically unfit.
     
  11. exumspate

    exumspate Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Or:

    Size is an integral factor in the sum of any fighter...

    Agreed...
     
  12. Farmboxer

    Farmboxer VIP Member Full Member

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    They never complained about Lewis' size over his opponents. They never complained about Ali being 6 foot 3 inches tall fighting Quarry who was only 5 feet 10 inches tall, etc.
     
  13. DonBoxer

    DonBoxer The Lion! Full Member

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    How very dare you.
     
  14. Musashi

    Musashi Member Full Member

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    Oct 27, 2006

    I do often repeat myself, I'll admit, but I think the point was successfully made.
     
  15. unsigned_userv2

    unsigned_userv2 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Good post. To me it's no different if somebody where to argue where would Ali be without his speed or Marciano without his punch. That's their genetics so they train to maximise those advantages.

    Primo Carnera, was massive yet was never dominant. Max Baer was exposed by smaller fighters. Dempsey annihilated the giant Jess Willard. Mike Tyson was a short 180cm and weighed around 98kg give or take at his best yet was dominant against larger opposition.

    Paul Williams is probably a good example of a tall fighter who does not maximise his height, always leans forward and fights a small mans fight. Smaller fighters have frequently pushed him to the limit