A very young Usyk tells Wladimir and Vitali he’ll have to take those belts from them :D

Joe Louis lost to three heavyweights.

Whatever they weighed on fight night, there was no weight target that either they or he had to meet.

The cruiserweight division is a very different animal, and the best cruiserweights are sometimes not the best and brightest men capable of making that weight.

Havin said that, Usyk fought in a cruiserweight era populated by giants, and put them all to the sword.

 

They may well be true but it's completely and utterly irrelevant. Michael Spinks would beat heaps and heaps of guys on the early record of Louis, Ali, Tyson, Lewis and many others. It simply doesn't matter tho.

 

That too is irrelevant tho. It's heavyweight, an open division. Being smaller than guys and overcoming physical disadvantages adds to Usyk's P4P merit and to his overall greatness but it doesn't matter a lick when he is judged at heavyweight, the open division.

 

John am I crazy but is this Cruiserweight/Heavyweight argument about both resumes being rolled into one for strictly a Heavyweight resume only being used for Usyk in recent times ? I swear I've never seen this argument be used before Usyk started winning at Heavyweight.

I wasn't born when Holyfield was in his pomp but were people using Holyfield's Cruiserweight achievements to heighten his Heavyweight resume ? I doubt it.

I think it's all nonsense honestly if you want to rate Usyk highly P4P based on his resume in both divisions that's fair enough. But in regards to his resume based soley in that single weightclass you rate him based on what his achieved in that weightclass not using mental gymnastics to give him more credit.

It's quite simple the Cruiserweight division has a weight limit capped off at 200 pounds the Heavyweight division hasn't.

 

It's a case of cherry picked criteria to make the new big thing look better. Amateur accolades started mattering when the eastern Europeans started appearing and had underwhelming resumes. The amount of champs or contenders beaten in ''X cherry picked amount of fights that make the fighter with the longer career look bad'' started mattering when Loma appeared, and it continues with Usyk.

Now the fanboys are willing to count Cruiserweight accomplishments for Usyk's HW status, because CW sized men were called Heavyweights back then due to CW not existing, but for some reason no one acknowledges the tweener divisions for other fighters. Why is no one using Roy Jones' win over Toney at 168 as a reason for why he is a top tier Light Heavyweight ? Why is nobody using Hearns' or McCallum's runs at 154 to claim they were ATG Middleweights ? Why is nobody using Gomez's run at 122 as an argument for why he is an ATG Featherweight ?

I think the answer to that is pretty clear.

 

There's an immense push by the modernists to make Usyk look even better than he is. It's insane. Like modern society everything has to be had, and had NOW. A guy like Larry Holmes had to toil for years before many started to give him his due, and this is coming from a (somewhat) critic of Holmes who thinks he marginally overrated.

Usyk has had what, 7 heavyweight fights and given how late his move up to heavyweight he's not going to have a whole lot more. He's been pro for 11 years and had just 23 fights. To thrust him up people are feeling the need to bend the rules and get all disingenuous in an effort to break the restraints his career itself has imposed. They need to just let the man do what he does and we will see where he ends up in years to come. All of a sudden cruiserweight victories are heavyweight victories and i have seen guys whining that classicists won't give him a go and are being selective while simultaneously giving big points toward his heavyweight resume because he is overcoming size disadvantages

His strength historically will be that there is not a lot of filler on his resume. If he has another 3-5 fights against the best (and he's sure not avoiding the best) his spot among heavyweight resumes will be starting to look really good in the top end (Top 5 contenders). His followers will be able to match top ends vs a guy like Holmes, who despite his great longevity very much lacked quantity vs top 5 fighters. But at heavyweight you still have to weigh up Holmes overall body of work too. There's others he needs to pass prior to a guy like Holmes however.

So it will be interesting in the next few years providing he fights on. With every subsequent victory Classic is going to be swamped with angst ridden modernists trying to ram him down Classicist throats. To be fair there will also be some classicists doing everything in their power to minimize him as well.

I'm almost glad he doesn't fight very often hahaha. He could well ramp the pace up for his last fights tho. Try and beat age by fighting regularly to the finish line. It will be fascinating. I hope Parker beats Dubois so we can see him against a non giant (tho Parker is a big heavyweight) who has outboxed a couple of the big guys of late.

 

Everyone has their criteria. It is irrelevant to yours.

 

There's criteria that matters and manufactured biased, desperate criteria. I know you are keen to elevate him to the stratosphere. You did a merry christmas thread the other day and included him in the title, for heavens sake. It's totally bizarre.

I'm not even having a shot, i like you. You've been extreme on the whole Usyk front however and that's hardly unfair to put it out there.

He will end up where he ends up no matter how hard you try.

 

Look guy, people have their own criteria. You aren't going to change that. I think Briedis would beat, say, Chambers, AND he's accomplished more in boxing. I feel that is a better win, and that is not going to change because you really want it to.

Good luck to you.

 

If you want to rate him the #1 fighter and heavyweight ever after another couple of fights, that's up to you, guy. Do what you like but don't expect more balanced posters to follow suit or not question.

You have no idea of the concept of P4P, heavyweight, or resume. Wasn't it you that argued extensively, despite complete factual video evidence, that Ali had to be helped back to his stool the other day vs Cooper? That's OK tho, as long as you yourself are satisfied.

 

Couldn’t agree more and it’s driving me nuts to be honest lol.

 

I bring up Louis's losses to sub 200 pound fighter's for one reason only. I keep seeing folks post time and time again about most of Uysk's fights being at Cruiserweight which is true but what is also true is that the majority of past heavyweight champions (pre 1980's) fought around 200 pounds or less. Folks keep arguing that he is less of a fighter because of it but they don't understand how loaded that division was that he cleaned out before moving on to the Super heavyweights and some don't get that all of those Cruiserweights were well over 200 pounds on fight night while a guy like Max Schmeling was 194 when he knocked out Louis. What do you think would happen if Uysk was knocked out by a 194 pound fighter? Folks would lose their minds.

 

The issue is the size. Bottom line is, the Cruiserweights of today are bigger than most of the ore 1980's heavyweights. All of Uysk's opponents as a pro have been over 200 pounds on fight night. Most pre 1980's heavyweights fought at or under 200 pounds. It's pretty simple actually. Dempsey, Louis and Marciano fought much smaller men than Uysk and that's not debatable. The cherry pick comment is ridiculous. Uysk has fought the absolute best of his era sometimes even twice and in the opponents backyard.

 

Trouble is you are talking H2H when the whole cruiserweight debate thing is resume based, not H2H. Talking up his cruiserweight career has some substance H2H, but it has no place on a resume based ATG Heavyweight ranking. Nil, nada.

Regardless of what size guys the likes of Louis and whoever were facing, they were facing the best in the open division.

Usyk didn't face the best no weight limit fighters until he moved up. Fury, Wilder, Joshua and co would have hammered the cruiserweights people want to include into his heavyweight resume.

Go for your life H2H with it, but not resume wise.

 

The problem with resume ranking is a lot of guys from other era's are over ranked due to the popularity of the sport in those era's. Does anyone actually believe Tony Galento is a better fighter than Breidis or Gassiev? I feel like I am beating a dead horse.