A work in progress, how does Vitlai Klitschko rate as an ATG heavyweight?

So your saying you can evaluate a fighter based on them sparring or hitting the heavybag? ATG great status can only be determined by level of competition and wins and losses.

 

Id also like to know how David haye plays such an important factor in this thread as to elevating either Klitschko to a higher level? Has David Haye proved himself in the heavyweight division. He has a win over Monte Barrett, as his claim to fame. Wouldnt that fight be about the credibility of David Haye being a heavyweight fighter, and not just a heavyweight talker?? Beating David Haye will only detract from David Haye in my opinion. He isnt Holyfield regardless of his background.

 

Yeah but Ali fought Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Norton etc., not Moe Larry and Curly. There was fights for Vitali late in the 90s that his promoter wanted no part of. You need the competition to define greatness. He doesnt have it, and lost to a retiring Lewis, so thats where I stand on it.

 

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Was he winning? He was getting hit to be injured right? He was slowing down against Lewis. The injuries didnt cause him to lose against Lewis, Lewis did because he caused the injuries.
Vitali is a good fighter, in my opinion he has more intangibles than his brother to achieve a higher status as champion, but his body breaking down in fights is also a part of boxing that he has to overcome, especially against Byrd, where the threat was low, and he could have tried to box and move to finish the fight.

 

I also dont think Vitali retired Lewis. Lewis retired because he knew he was having some trouble doing the things he did in the past against an unproven fighter. Lewis retired because he was smart enough to realize he was not fighting with the same consistency he did in the past, and it started with the Rahman loss.

 

Would you say that inconsistencies started to appear between Rahman and Klitschko? Of course. Lewis is one of the smarter guys in boxing. Hes not going to wait until he loses to Kevin Mcbride or Larry Donald to get out of the sport.

 

A lot of things factor in ... however the Vitali that fought a still very tough Lennox Lewis himself on short notice proved to me that he has a world class chin. He took bombs from Lewis who was still a murderous puncher and kept coming ... so his heart and chin are proven to be first rate ... that plus his overall physical skill and size do make him a very tough match up for many to be. I feel he would defeat many better pound for pound but smaller heavyweights.

 

Okay.

First off, 4 and 5 are completely rendered moot points. Mainly because it's not an indication of the quality of opponents but the bum-record chasers that we have as HW. Back in the old times people had to actually fought other good fighters and they all fought each other tons of times. 5 isn't say do anything for his legacy. Discrediting or downing his team/staff doesn't jump him higher with the elites. And that's his choice, we don't give him props or lack of props because of it.

The fight with Byrd was unfortunate, and unfortunately it hurts his legacy. He hung with Lennox Lewis, but Lewis was coming into his own and was over-weight and past his prime. I had Vitalia ahead on my scorecards and the cut was unfortunate, but this is a big loss.

The real stinker is his competition. In terms of legacy he is above his brother. I always want to point out that it does hurt him that he isn't the best of his era. I'm sorry that he and his brother dominate but the fact that they both share that title hurt both their legacies. This is complete legit for me and I have no problem not boosting them for not having been the best of their era.

Right now Vitalia is in the 15-20 ranks at best. I don't have Bowe as high as you do. Liston is ahead of him (Vitalia), as is Schmeling, Walcott, Patterson, and probably Jeffries as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly, I know lesser of the pre 1900 champions/fighters. I have trouble knowing where to place/rank them. I think you could also make a case for crediting fighters of lower divisions to be ahead of him. Some could argue Tunney and Charles should rank ahead of him.

I don't rate in terms of H2H. That deserves an entirely different list, and rating the greatest HW under that criteria is stupid for thousands of reasons. I do, however, rate in terms of skills/abilities and their pros/cons. But I don't place him versus him, especially considering the speculative nature for it. H2H deserves a separate list.

 

Ali had a bad burning sensation for 1-2 rounds and he was basically blind. He didn't want to quit but to prove and expose Liston as a cheater. Stop skewing the truth.

One thing I want to say. If and this is a very very big stretch of if but if Vlad loses to Haye he's automatically outside the top 20 in terms of ATG Heavyweights. Just be known as losing the big fights in a terrible era, and in era in which he can't say he completely dominated by himself.

 

Here's the issue.

Lennox Lewis was one of the few champions in the sport regardless of weight class that beat his heir apparent on his way out.

For Lennox, there was no reason for him to rematch Vitaly. A rematch would have helped Vitaly's career far better than it would have helped Lewis. Lewis was the heaviest in his career looked lethargic in the fight and lacked the sharpness that he previously had. A Fighter knows thier body best. Lewis knew that; he knew that he didnt have it anymore. The desire was there but his body wasnt responding the same, after all he was 38.

Vitaly's KO ratio and rounds won are certainly admirable but they need to be put in context.

He doesnt make top 15 on the basis that most of us here can come with 15 names of fighter's who accomplished more.

In terms of ability I already did a thread earlier which took the 25 best HW Champions and I included Vitaly and if I recall I rated him above Joe Louis in head to head (and I love Joe Louis). But when assessing the greatness of fighter quality of opposition, tenure or reign as champion are critical components in which I feel he severly lacks in. He had the ability to rank higher but injuries really put him out of contention.

I agree, not every ATG fighter has another ATG prime fighter in thier resume. It seldom happens. But as long as they have some sort of depth in thier resume with quality fighters under thier win column then that compensates for it.

Look at George Foreman: Resume doesnt have alot of depth but he has some top tier names. Frazier 2x, Norton, Moorer, Lyle.

Look at Holmes: Some may say he never beat a great fighter in thier prime. But he beat so many ranked contenders over so many years that his greatness cannot be denied.

Vitaly has neither:

I couldnt come up with 10 names on his resume that I can proudly display alongside Ali, Lewis, Tyson, Liston, Holyfield, Bowe, Marciano, etc.

He's a top 30 fighter when all is said and done. I have him generously in the top 25. But 15 is stretch....

By the way you previously made a comment about Vitaly turning pro in 1996 and therefore he couldnt just face a Holyfield, Lewis or Tyson in the late 90s.

FYI Tyson turned pro in 1985 and was champion in 1986 unified the titles in 1988.

Holyfield turned pro in the tail end of 1984 and in his 12th pro fight he fought for a title in 1986.

So its not out of reason given Vitaly's extensive amateur career.

 

:good:good You and I are going to be good e-pals.