ABC Belts = Lineal?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by kg0208, Jul 10, 2007.


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  1. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Do you need to unify the ABC belts to re establish Lineage when a title is vacated? Yes or no, state your case and any info you have to back up your case. This way, we know where ESB stands.

    IMO the ABC belts don't have anything to do with the lineal title and the only reason unification ever works to establish lineage is because the Top 2 fighters are usually involved. But in this day and age of stripped titles, it doesn't always guarantee it.

    So IMO, the lineage can only be established when the top 2 fighters get it on, regardless of what belts they hold.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #1
  2. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    it depends on a bunch of ****

    but in general, if you ignore titles being stripped and consider that the lineage of the individual titles, then when those lineages all cross roads, you will definately have a linear champion.
     
    PH|LLA, Jul 10, 2007
    PH|LLA, Jul 10, 2007
    #2
  3. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But unification doesn't ignore stripping. I will put it this way. I don't think that 130lb division could unify the 3 major titles and get a lineal champion. You know why? Pacman is considered #1 in that division. And you can't be lineal champion no matter how many belts you have unified if you don't beat Pacman. And if Pacman fought JMM....for me, the winner has established a new lineage, even with only one title on the line.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #3
  4. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    actually, unification does not always mean lineage but in many cases it does
     
    PH|LLA, Jul 10, 2007
    PH|LLA, Jul 10, 2007
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  5. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yah, thats true. I agree....

    I am saying that it only works when it does because the top 2 fighters are generally present. If they are not present, due to stripping, then it does nothing.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
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  6. Stinky gloves

    Stinky gloves Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    In case of no lineage the guy recognized as #1 must face #2 or #3 in the whole division ...
    I'm not sure if they both must have the tiles, its probably case dependent.

    However hard to say who decides about top 3. Right now the HW Ring
    list is as follow:

    1. Wladimir Klitschko
    2. Samuel Peter
    3. Oleg Maskaev
    4. Ruslan Chagaev

    I would say that Wlad vs Chagaev/Maskaev would make linear title.
    I like the idea of title unification in the same process so Peter must wait for his own.
     
    Stinky gloves, Jul 10, 2007
    Stinky gloves, Jul 10, 2007
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  7. thesandman

    thesandman Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have argued on the other thread about this, but one thing we must all agree on.

    The Ring <> lineage.

    That is all.
     
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    #7
  8. Chert

    Chert Ringside Potato Full Member

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    yep. only a new lineal champ in 130 will be crowned when pac and jmm finally fight. barrera wan't the lineal champ when jmm beat him. i think he was #2 behind pac.

    @135, casa is still currently the lineal champ but doesn't hold an ABC belt being stripped of his WBC title recently. juan diaz who holds two ABC titles and rated #1 must defeat casa to become lineal champ.

    in short, the top two fighters in a weight division regardless of whether or not they currently hold ABC titles must fight to establish a lineal champ. imo, the ring ratings are the closest thing we have to tracking the lineal champ in every weight division.
     
    Chert, Jul 10, 2007
    Chert, Jul 10, 2007
    #8
  9. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes we have. But that thread was not about that originally. This will get more of ESB's opinion I think, which is my goal. None of us know it all, so lets see where the info comes from.

    BTW, where did you see that the site provided to you showed Spinks as Lineal? It shows PBF as lineal....you must have looked in the wrong place. http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/champ.htm

    Are you saying you think the Ring and Lineage are equal? Kinda confused by your post.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #9
  10. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You know, I thought Casa was the lineal champ too. The site I am using claims there has not been a LW lineal champion since Pernell Whitaker, and that PBF vs Castillo did not establish lineage, so it was never re-established. If you could find something showing that Casa is lineal, I would like to see it, because I believed he was as well.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #10
  11. thesandman

    thesandman Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No, I was just responding to this post....

    mentioning who the Ring had ranked where.

    I just won't even bother if we have a load of ring magazine references - and I'm not having a dig at the guy that posted either.
     
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    #11
  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    In general, it does. Lineage is established by an eliminator of the best contenders against each other. Since the four beltholders are theoretically the best four contenders (based upon the fact that you must fight "worthy" opponents to get these belts...occasionally untrue but generally correct), an elimination tournament must be fought between them to determine "the man".
     
    cross_trainer, Jul 10, 2007
    cross_trainer, Jul 10, 2007
    #12
  13. thesandman

    thesandman Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks for summing up what has taken me about 20 posts to try and say....
     
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    thesandman, Jul 10, 2007
    #13
  14. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I didn't think you were having a dig. I am asking you what you mean?

    You used <>....that means both Ring and Lineal or greater and less than the other. I am asking what you mean.
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #14
  15. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And if the top 4 are NOT the 4 beltholders?

    Like at 130 or 135?
     
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    kg0208, Jul 10, 2007
    #15
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