Absolute prime is not the same as best he looked on film

Did the doctor ever say that? I can't say that I know personally that it was freakish.

 

Dunno. The article is buried in threads past.

If you're saying neither a punch nor a poke injured Terrell's eye, though, then we're back to wondering whether he's lying.

 

Haven't said that. I said without clear evidence of a poke I'll go for punches. If we are going to take every fighter's excuses on face value we will have to adjust a lot.

And I haven't seen you dismiss every other fight where there's been mention of an injury. Looking forward to see you apply that standard universally.

 

Well, Terrell said that his eye was jammed. The newspaper article of him in the hospital repeated this. There are only a limited number of explanations.

1) Terrell's eye was jammed with a punch.

2) Terrell's eye was jammed with a poke.

3) Terrell was somehow mistaken about his own vision problems.

4) Terrell is lying.



With your talk of excuses, I assumed you were going with option 4. What is your view, if not that?

 

If we ignore the footage, take every Ali's opponents excuse/accusations for face value and dismiss all those fights, ignore the excuses made for Ali, ignore what we in every other case say about someone who's been away that long (and back so short as he was for FOTC), ignore what the opinion was at that the time, ignore the fighters that fought fairly soon before and after exile and said the former was better....

Yes. Then we can make a case that Ali was just as good or better post exile.

But that just isn't intellectually honest. So why it's so popular....

But I've done this too many times, so I'll bow out now. If the first paragraph doesn't convince then nothing will, anyhow.

 

EXCELLENT POST! I'll go so far as to say a GREAT case can be made that the Joe Louis Prime occurred between 1940 and 1942. (IMHO, of course), but I do agree that Joe was very impressive in the Baer fight. In fact, Joe, himself, on more than 1 occasion defined that fight as the 1 when he felt the best in the ring.

 

To be clear, I never said post-exile Ali was better. I said that his best pre-exile performances were against younger, uninjured fighters like Cooper, Mildenberger, and Chuvalo.

 

I think I have been very clear that I believe 1 and 4 if there's not any clearer indication. His claim that Ali was rubbing his eyes along the ropes is contradicted by the film imo.

And as I said, I look forward to see you completely dismiss the result of any fight where injury excuses were made, as you've done for Ali.

That will be all for me.

 

1 and 4 are mutually exclusive, at least as far as an eye injury goes. Either his eye was jammed, or it wasn't.

I lean toward either 1 or 2, based on their having better evidence than typical post-fight excuses. I believe the eye was jammed. Based on Terrell's unreliability, I'm agnostic about whether it was a punch or a poke, but consider either plausible.

EDIT: Fixed numbering.

EDIT 2: As to the claim I'm using double standards, I don't think so. I'm evaluating Ali's opponents' excuses by the same standards I use for Ali's own stories -- like his claim that Liston had a stinging substance on his gloves. I believe Ali's story about the gloves because it's consistent with what footage shows (like Patterson's back issue) and because another of Liston's opponents made a similar allegation (like Terrell's eyepoke.) Fair's fair.

 

Which other Liston's opponent made a similar allegation? Machen? He said absolutely nothing about it until AFTER the Ali bout. Machen was very desperate for a title shot to the point where he suffered a mental breakdown after failing to beat Williams, and getting eliminated from a title shot. If he had anything he could use to excuse his loss, and try to get a rematch with Liston, he would've in a heartbeat.

As a matter of fact, he DID have an excuse for his loss to Liston, citing an injured shoulder so I see no reason why he would neglect to mention his eyes were burning.

Also, Ali and Dundee both later confirmed, Liston didn't intentionally put any substance on his gloves to blind Ali.

 

Yes, it was Machen. At least per other discussions in this forum. Similarly, Norton (and I think one other person?) claimed that Ali eyepoked him in an interview long after the Terrell fight was done.

I never said that Liston intentionally put stuff on his gloves. Like the Terrell eye issue, I don't need to decide for sure whether it was intentional or accidental. Some evidence for intentional. Some for accidental. But either way, it's more likely he had something on his gloves.

 

I don't think he had anything on his gloves.
Dundee, 82, revealed: 'People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock. 'It was either Monsel's Solution (a coagulant to treat cuts that was legal at the time but is now banned) or else it was the stuff they kept rubbing on Sonny's shoulders between the rounds. '

 

Hagler's best technical performance was his systematic demolition of Tony Sibson. He was masterful that night against a truly World class opponent.

 

Ali got some kind of irritant in his eyes that originated from Sonny's corner. Whether the transmission method was the gloves, the shoulder, face to face contact in a clinch, etc. My point was that I don't think Ali made it up that there was some irritant in his eyes that came from Sonny.

 

Hagler was in equally good form against Scypion a few months later. Sibson was more highly regarded as a contender at the time, I think...but Marvin was just about as destructive against a pretty good Wilford, all things considered.