According to the normal distribution of height (mean = 5'8"), why didn´t the 6'2" HWs dominate 50s?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by GOAT Primo Carnera, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Member Full Member

    434
    480
    Apr 29, 2019
    Just going to put out this is absolutely wrong as frame and numerous variables come into play when determining functional weight. The wrist measurement frame test isn't even reliable as Manny Pacquiao has 8 inch wrists but clearly has a smaller frame than fellow 5'5" man Qawi.

    Height and wingspan doesn't fair much better. I don't think anyone really believes that 5'8" 72" wingspan Mayweather could carry more functional weight than 5'5" 70" wingspan Qawi. It is obvious one man just has an exceptionally larger overall frame.

    What is functional weight in boxing anyway? The effectiveness of punching power, stamina and durability at a given weight class which isn't necessarily tied to frame. And do fighters even care about that? What's more important to picking a weight class? Functional weight or opportunity to cash in on a title. Or perhaps maybe, they just want to compete in a weight class where they hold more physical advantages than their opponents. Would Mayweather be so eager to jump up to Welter if it was an era dominated by Hearns, Leonard, and other bigger men? Probably not.
     
  2. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,138
    1,824
    Jan 28, 2018
    My post contained enough lines to explain that shorter trimmed high BMI boxers are outliers of the mean height/weight-ratio of a boxing environment.

    For most of the boxers, I´d say flab isn´t functional body mass, for example Tony Tubbs wasn a "legit" 238lb boxer or James Douglas didn´t have a functional weight of 240, its pretty wide known as out of shape. Additional muscle can become functional mass, but not for everyone. High-volume fighters like Frazier or Rocky wouldn´t benefit from it the way 12 round boxer-punchers would.
     
    Glass City Cobra likes this.
  3. Bukkake

    Bukkake Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,283
    1,979
    Apr 20, 2010
    There's no doubt, that activity in the US took a huge nosedive following WW2.

    By 1955 the number of promotions was less than 1/5 of what it had been 25 years earlier, in 1930.

    Does this mean, that the number of HWs had shrunk this much as well? Not necessarily... it's impossible to say, really (unless you count every active HW in both 1930 and 1955; a truly colossal task!). But I would guess, that a significant reduction must have taken place.
     
    GOAT Primo Carnera likes this.
  4. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Active Member Full Member

    1,041
    1,107
    Feb 18, 2019
    I would guess there were more promotions in the 1930's than the 1970's. So you think the heavyweights of the 1930's were better than the heavyweights of the 1970's?

    I think the number of promotions is less important than the quality of the men fighting.

    Wouldn't this basically be true in any sport. Does the number of colleges playing gridiron football really matter when there are only a handful which have any chance to be the national champion?

    I think to rise to the top in boxing or any other sport requires more than being part of a larger number. It requires that the participants have the basic athleticism to be a champion. My guess is the participation in Mexico was often greater than in the US, but Mexican heavyweights have rarely amounted to much. Clearly African-American heavyweights have always been significant, and often, I would say usually, been dominant. Or to put it another way, dragging in large numbers of men doesn't mean anything if they aren't athletic enough to amount to anything. The problem with the 1930's prior to Louis is that the heavyweights fail the eye test. They just don't seem that talented or skillful.

    Or the talent in a talent pool isn't dependent on the numbers in the talent pool.
     
    GOAT Primo Carnera likes this.
  5. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Active Member Full Member

    1,041
    1,107
    Feb 18, 2019
    "loads of African-American heavyweights in the 1930's"

    I don't think this is actually true, but even if it were, so what if they didn't have access to top training and had to participate in a separate "colored" division. How many African-American heavyweights were actually rated in the 1930's?

    That there ever was a color line tells you all you need to know about the relative competitiveness of African-American versus white fighters. Did African-Americans ever draw a reverse color line?

    "hungry white 'sons of immigrants' "

    Who created the color line. Why did they do that? Is it JUST a coincidence that once the color line fell, so did their dominance?
     
    superman1692 likes this.
  6. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Member Full Member

    434
    480
    Apr 29, 2019
    I thought you didn't want this to become another Marciano thread, weirdo.

    Just couldn't help yourself, can only mask your true obsession and agenda for so long.
     
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    53,500
    13,648
    Nov 24, 2005
    It's a factor.
    But the economic rise of the whites ethnic minorities out of the slums is a bigger factor, don't you agree ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  8. Grinder

    Grinder Dude, don't call me Dude Full Member

    4,382
    896
    Mar 24, 2005
    Lewis was knocked out twice, once cold. What happens when a granite chinned wrecking ball gets to his chest and throws bombs for 12-15 rounds?
     
  9. KidDynamite

    KidDynamite Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,916
    244
    Sep 16, 2012
    Height only matters if you can use it to your advantage.

    Tyson was a shorter heavyweight ... He used his height to his advantage... It was easier for him to duck punches

    Vitali was a tall heavyweight ... He used his height to his advantage with his lean back style ...
     
    Glass City Cobra and Balder like this.
  10. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

    3,485
    1,108
    Dec 16, 2012
    According to both what I know & your the words before the chart you posted, the average American man is 5' 10", not 5' 10"-5'11".
    If you look at the chart itself, it actually shows that the greatest # of men are either 5' 9" or 5' 10".
    This accords to my understanding: among those born recently the average is right around 5' 10" or marginally higher.
    If you average in older men &/or enough immigrants from nations where the nutrition is less adequate, the average is around 4' 9".

    This is a small difference from the slightly higher number you claimed, but it is important to be accurate.
     
  11. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,138
    1,824
    Jan 28, 2018
    Who was the monochromatic fable fapper who couldn´t resist pushing the troll button in post #3 ?

    @mods: Can you please check this? Someone didn´t screw the RBV Bucket?

    Vaccine spray: Check. Load: Check. Apply: What wrecking ball avaraged 9 rounds+ to stop the seniors caboodle, what granite chinned fellow fell on his ass twice by taps from two 19th century immigrants?

    Stop repeating blown up tales from the past. Give RBV no chance. Thanks.

    Humans of the earth & logic, back to topic please.

    @Entaowed I´ll come back to that later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
    Entaowed likes this.
  12. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,551
    3,791
    Aug 15, 2018
    Up until about 25 years ago the height of every hw champion basically (except Primo and Willard) was 5”10- 6”3 range. The creation of the cruiser division, prominent steroid use, weight lifting, better nutrition, and the elimination of 15 round and longer fights has allowed men to balloon to larger proportions. If these men had to fight 20
    Rounders I don’t think they’d be so big. Probably have to balance it out better. We have had a recent 6”2 champ in Ruiz who was morbidly obese. That and a serious question arises as tot be truth of these men’s heights. Which messes up the average. Having met some of these guys and hearing from others many of their heights are exaggerated by an inch or two (some are honest I’m sure).
    But to answer your question Marciano Moore Liston and Patterson were just better then the Ninos and Bakers of the time. More of a skill era then an athletic one.
     
  13. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Active Member Full Member

    1,041
    1,107
    Feb 18, 2019
    No. I don't. Because what is the evidence that these white ethnic minorities were ever producing the best heavyweights? Sullivan? He refused to fight Jackson. Corbett? He went to a ND with Jackson and then refused to fight him for the title. Jeffries? Refused to defend against Johnson and heavy-handedly drew the color line. When Jeffries came back to fight Johnson he was uncompetitive. Dempsey? Didn't fight Wills. Tunney? I don't think he ever fought a black man.

    Hart and Willard? First, do they quality as white ethnics? Second, Hart won a dubious decision and Willard a stacked deck finish fight with a 37 year old and out of shape man.

    The wins one can point to are against men long past their best. Jeff beat a long laid off and washed up Jackson. Johnson was 37 and out of shape against Willard. Sharkey beat a 37 year old Wills months after Tunney made it publicly clear that Wills would never get a title shot.

    Sharkey over Godfrey. Perhaps, but Godfrey also lost to Renault and Risko, second level white fighters. Who knows how good he was? If he wasn't wearing the cuffs against Sharkey.

    The only white fighters with big wins over top young black fighters were the Europeans Schmeling and Johansson in a first fight with both being destroyed in rematches.

    Marciano? As his critics dwell on, he beat aging black fighters, but they were at least the best men available at the time and at the top of the heavyweight division.

    So I would say there is scant evidence indeed for any of these American white ethnic fighters ever being the best out there with the singular exception of Marciano.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  14. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

    4,972
    5,100
    May 30, 2019
    Do we really try to sell that black men are better in boxing than white men?
     
  15. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,829
    500
    Nov 10, 2012

    Wlad , Fury and Vitali have entered the chat