After the Keith Thurman upset, is Manny Pacquiao a greater fighter than Muhammad Ali?

Roy didn't just get beat. He was brutalized by anyone he fought after he took his first loss. And still hardly anyone thinks it hurt his career much. He still rated super high H2H.

 

It did hurt his legacy. Rjj became butt of jokes about his glass jaw. Look at any glass jaw thread today and you will still find his name near the top of any list. That right there tells you he hurt his legacy with those loses

 

I’m not sure if you read my last reply so I’ll ask again: what happens if Pac doesn’t rematch Horn? Is it really going to hurt his legacy, much like it did to Duran when he lost to some guy named Kirkland Laing?

Like I said, Pac has already paid his dues and sealed his legacy. No need to waste time to rematch a guy that many believe that you won. I’m not sure why you’re bothered about the idea of Pac trying to go after Floyd or Spence/Crawford. Those are big money fights that will help further improve his ATG status. What’s the problem with Pac still daring to be great??

 

Duran should have avenged that loss to laing as well. I honestly dont want pac to fight spence a fight that wont happen btw or Spence because i dont want to see him brutally destroyed. If he wants to continue fighting he should target lipinets or horn both winnable fights. He doesn't have a chance against the other two.

 

Who did Ali beat at 40? No one is saying Thurman is Foreman. But he's a full fledged welter and Manny took his 0 at 40.

Not arguing for Pac over Ali but no one was saying Keith Thurman was better than Foreman. No one.

 

Say what you want but everything Pac achieved he EARNED! He didnt have Vegas judges & the NSAC covering his ass to ensure he kept his 0 at all costs like Mayweather did. Can you imagine Floyd going to Australia to fight Horn ?? No way in hell he leaves Vegas
Floyd aint fit to carry Pac's jockstrap

 

Thing is you DONT know if Spence can destroy Pac, let alone trouble him. That’s why this fight is so intriguing, because Pac still showed he can hang with the top fighters and prove people wrong. It’s possible Spence can win but he’s not going to just run over a great like Pac so easily. It’s also not out of the realm of possibility for Pac to actually pull off another win over someone like Spence.

At this point Pac really has nothing left to prove and if he wants to keep fighting and face the the top fighters then by all means go out with a bang, win or lose.

 

I'm probably on the older side of the average age here, but I can at least admit that I do see Ali's career with rose colored glasses.
Same with my boy Duran. I never loved a boxer as much as I did Duran. Can never rewatch his fight against Hearns.

That being said, if you can't put Pacquiao in the same league as Ali, the fab 4 and even the elites like SRR and SRL, you're a hater.
Pacquiao has achieved something that in all honesty I never thought was possible. And he even skipped 2 weight classes he could've easily dominated. He could've fought Sergio before Cotto exposed the former instead of fighting Algieri. And I am confident he would've had another lineal championship belt under his name if the fight happened. That is amazing. If you don't find greatness in that, I don't know what else to say.

Pacquaio is arguably neck and neck with Duran right now, because unlike most posters here, I do remember how we all felt about Thurman before Pac fought and dominated him. The amount of downplaying about that win here is beyond me.

 

Loss to FlIVd meant nothing. 5 years too late, injured and FlIVd was PED loaded. Manny still came back and destroyed Morales as he was a better fighter and only getting better. The record says he beat Marquez twice. It took Marquez a lot of steroids and 4 tries to beat Manny. You know da.mn well that He was robbed in the Horn fight, come on man! Only Manny haters actually believe he lost that fight. If that fight happens anywhere else Manny gets the nod. Love Duran but he lost all his big fights against the other big 3 with the exception of the first Leonard fight. Also lost to the great Beniitez. Not taking anything from an all time great but Manny edges him.
Again this is just my opinion. If someone has Manny behind Duran I have no issue with it. But FlIVd? No way is he ahead of Manny. 8 division champ/better resume >50-0. Im completely open to having my mind changed if someone can present a convincing argument. Im not afraid of having my mine changed. I hate FlIVd but I judge him fairly.

 

Lol just no. Being undisputed champ means your the best in your division. Pac was lineal in 5, he was the best in 5 divisions, arguably 5 times the talent pool just going by that logic alone.

Also to put how hard what Pac did into perspective. It’s the equivalent of Rigo climbing up to SMW and winning a belt. Which is harder? Clean out 122, lose the belt twice and win it 3 times overall to become undisputed 3x? Or tear through 8 divisions meaning he has to beat the lineal champ at 126, 130, 135, 140 and win a belt at 168?

Or for Loma to do the same feat at LW or to tear through the divisions north of LW eventually fighting an ATG at MW, since we have none there atm i’ll settle for Canelo or GGG.

Face it, we’ve had many undisputed single division champs, countless of them. Only one 8 division champ for a reason. The fact that top guys like Loma, Mikey, Rigo can’t even make a move up 4 weight divisions from where they started tells you what a miracle it is for someone to do it across 10. And not just do it but dominate it for a period of time. The only one he couldn’t dominate at WW was floyd and JMM, in his prime he’s an atg at the weight.

It’s so insane that without any substantiated evidence, with any failed tests, failed A samples, illegal IV’s, not a single smoking gun, people could only explain it with peds. Usually people only make **** up when they see miracles, there has to be a rational explanation so they make one up.

What Ali did in becoming undisputed is similar to what wilder would do if he goes on to beat fury, Joshua and Ruiz. Really, that’s the bar you set? You think that’s harder than climbing 10 weight divisions in modern day boxing?

Pac has too many feats to be discounted from top 10 all time. Fought too many atgs, hof’ers, 23 champions, countless championship belts, only 8 division champ in history, oldest WW champ in history.

 

Pac is an ATG and one of the top five greatest living boxers. I had him somewhere just outside the all-time top twenty back in late 2015.

I haven't given the matter much thought since then, but when I do, his last two wins at age 40 might well pull him just inside the twenty.

That said, I have Ali at 4, so no, Pac has not surpassed Ali.

Beating Spence and Crawford (highly unlikely ) would move the needle significantly, but IMO would not be enough to catch Ali.

 

In the p4p stakes we absolutely can. There are strong divisions and traditionally weak divisions. HW is usually one of the weakest at any given time but it gets glossed over because the champion at HW is seen as being the champion of boxing, since he could theoretically whoop everybody else. But P4P doesn't work like that. We're getting more fighter for less pounds in Pac.

 

Muhammad Ali - with

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weight Division @ Heavyweight 1
Manny Pacquiao - with

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Weight divisions 12345678

Do the Math 8 > 1

 

No he is not greater than Ali.

Beating Thurman IMO meant he can still bang with the young guns and any title holders. If Thurman goes on to win, then that will enhance Pac's win over him as for now, he beat a belt holder, not a HOF'er. Thurman still has to prove himself. He's good, not gr8.

Comparing both in Rookie years (2)
Pac KO'd Nice back n forth battle, some say it was a low-blow. Footage I saw was too grainy to say for or against.
Clay undefeated.

Within 4 years
KO'd again. Excuse was he was weight drained, however, Pac was very, VERY mobile in this fight. IMO he basically ran for 3 rounds. Pawed his jab. found few openings. He lost, period.

Draw with Sanchez. IMO could have been a DQ against Sanchez, I had Pac winning.

Ali's suspect wins: Norton II & III, Young, Ellis.
Pac's conclusive wins against quite a few fighters were coming off losses not victories.

Fought DLH who lost to PBF & was 3-3 going in 2008
Fought Hatton after PBF beat him.
Fought Rito who had one win coming off his KO loss to Mosley.
Fought Mosley coming off a draw to Mora & a loss to PBF.
Fought Rios coming off a loss to Alvarado.

Shady catchweights & day b4 weigh ins helped imo get 8 divisions
In 2003, vs MAB at 126lbs. Came in the heavier fighter @ 136lbs.
In 2005, vs Morales at 130lbs. Came in @ 139lbs.
In 2010 vs Margarito for the 154lb title Catchweight 144/150 148/165.

From 2003-2010 on fight night, Pac weight in 7 years 136lbs-148lbs, yet credited for winning in 8 divisions with a disparity of 12lbs. Aint that many classes between 12lbs, unless matches are based on 1. day before weigh in 2. catch weight.
IMO that means Pac's success was helped by re hydrating sometimes as much as 10-12lbs. Ali never had luxury of weighing less the day before, then outweighing his foe the day of the fight.

Ali thoroughly defeated by Frazier I. Pac same with Morales I Ali defends his title multiple times per year, same with Pac.
Greater than Ali is Ray Robinson, Hank Armstrong. One guy went 125 wins before a 2nd loss, the other guy won 3 weight classes at the same time, no catch weight needed.

Pac IMO is the mos exciting fighter of his era.
Ali in an era with few belts,2, usually defended both , whereas Pac spent his entire career one belt at a time , while his nemesis JMM routinely held 2 titles WBA & IBF. He won 3 belts against Diaz. How can I call Pac greater with one belt usually WBO?