He was never technically the best fighter, in fact I'd stretch to say he was pretty predictable. Jab, right hand, maybe a hook here & there & I don't think I ever saw him throw a body shot. But he could endure a lot of pain & he was very gifted athletically. Still for me a bit overrated.
I'd rewatch some of the film in slow mo if you can. Ali had a tendency to dodge punches by the slimmest of margins. Its appears as if he's being hit, like Tony Canzoneri before him, when he isn't. Slipping like this is the mark of a master.
Liston had a slower jab, albeit much more powerful. Ali did avoid it well, so props but it was also not very versatile
He was great, but a lot of it had to do with his psyching abilities. I personally find it hard to criticize the 60s Ali, and think besides Sugar Ray Robinson and Roberto Duran he may have been the greatest fighter who ever lived. His right wasn't quite as powerful as Holmes', however he had a fantastically devastating way of timing it (especially when it came to shortened up versions). But that's just me.
I agree. But, the people who can do this either have high knockout rates, or are very dominant and force their opponents to be reactive to them.
Cleveland Williams wouldn't pass a physical today , he had no business being in the ring that night. Frazier himself with the more advanced tests would have a real hard time to vision impaired.
Ali was not declining in physical strength , Ali.became an actual HW in the 70's. He was no longer hitting weights of 205 and 210 on average. So of course he would be lighter in his feet. He was about 217 against Foreman and he knew the only way to win was tire Foreman out , Ali.of the 60's most likely doesn't get away with this if he's getting stunned by the Coopers and Milendenbergers who even managed to keel him over with a body shot. Liston was past his prime when he fought All and falling apart. Had the fight happened around 1960 or may be different, it doesn't matter Liston being 210 in his prime and liking size advantages doesn't remotely tell me how he does ,particularly being a lunge puncher open to counters.... Doing head to head what you didn't do is address who Ali or Liston actually fought and would guys like Mildenberger beat guys like Ortiz ? Somehow I fail to see that. Lol i guarantee you Ali would struggle severely against the fighters today , they wouldn't be those 6'1 190 pounders . He would win some but he wasn't a super hero , the way you shut Ali down first is throwing jabs bc he cannot fight without working around them. It's this reason why I have Holmes over him . Ali of 1974 would be a best bet putting him against anyone bc that Ali was very tough and we'll balanced , he's to inconsistent to say Ali was the best fighter at all times. He's the type you actually have to pick a certain time frame with.
For all he was past his best and had a bullet in him Williams had won his previous 4 fights before facing Ali and won his next 5 albeit not against great opposition. He wasn’t exactly an invalid in there.
I love this thread. Half of the posts on here are "I just watched Ali and suddenly realized he got lucky beating the greatest assortment of HWs any HW ever beat." I dont think anyone, when Ali was fighting, accused him of being the most technically sound fighter. In fact he was often criticized for pulling straight back, not keeping him hands down, keeping his chin up, etc. But fundamentals are only one part of the equation. He was incredibly fast, very strong, had some of the best reflexes the division ever saw, had great head movement, excellent judgement of distance, excellent accuracy, was tough both mentally and physically, and was a big man particularly for the era. Those are all things that translate well in any era and all things that add up to a very difficult combination to beat. You have to look at every fight within its context and in fights against guys like Chuvalo and Terrell Ali toyed with those guys. He took more punches than he had to but it was by choice not because the other guy was forcing his will on Ali. Against Chuvalo he literally punked Chuvalo out by taking punches and showing that Chuvalo couldnt hurt him. Against Terrell he was furious and took more chances and fought less carefully because he wanted to embarrass Terrell by beating him every which and he did. I dont see Folley having as much success with Ali as some on here characterize and I personally dont think Williams was his best performance. I think Williams was made to order for Ali. I think that Ali fought better fighters after his exile and while he may have lost half a step increasing his level of opposition a notch or two (because the field was now more competitive and younger) had something to do with him not looking as fleet as he was did against the aging veterans he fought prior to his exile.
