Agree/Disagree - Dundee was a better manager/matchmaker + Cornerman than actual trainer

Gosh, I don't even remember that. I just remember him going batshirt on the ringside doctor. "Will you leave my facking guy alone?!"
"OKAY, Angie!" (continues to fuss over him)
"Leave my guy alone!"

 

Absolute balderdash Mark.

 

Expand please.

 

God bless you

 

And also with you.

 

Well do you actually know anything about Dundee Mark?
He just hung around gyms and picked up a few things about boxing and “got lucky” with Ali! It’s just absolute nonsense.
You do know he’d helped train Carmen Basilio in the fifties when winning the World Welterweight Title several years before training Ali?
He trained many other top fighters besides Ali, to dismiss him so easily simply shows a lack of knowledge.
It’s probably well documented that he wasn’t a great technical guy like say an Eddie Futch and others but he knew enough and was a great motivator and cornerman.
Sometimes in the corner in the heat of the battle especially in losing situations tactics need to just go out of the window and a fighter just needs his butt kicked, and he knew when this was needed.
Leonard vs Hearns and Pastrano vs Downes are two great examples of this and it wasn’t just bluster, he got the response.

 

Muhammad Ali once said that he met Angelo Dundee, when he handled Willie Pastrano prior to his fight against Johnny Holman, and he was impressed. But his Louisville Group after the 1960 Olympics decided on Archie Moore at first, then it was Dundee. Angelo was boxing savvy, a lot of fighters asked for his services. Amilcar Brusa, trainer of Carlos Monzon was referred as the Angelo Dundee of South America, fighters requested his services for big bouts. Dundee could motivate his fighters, an example was the 1981 title unification bout between Thomas The Hitman Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard, before the 14th round when he told Ray, You're Blowing It Son. Leonard responded by forcing the referee to rescue Hearns from the onslaught in round 14. He did the same thing for a blinded Cassius Clay in his title bout against Sonny Liston, when Clay wanted to quit before round 5, he told him, Run. Clay did and won the title, when Liston did not answer the bell for the 6th round on that day of February 25 1964. Angelo Dundee, a better trainer.

 

Seventh round.Dundee was a good corner man and motivator.As a trainer, I don't put him in the class of Futch,Arcel,etc.

 

Yeah Angie was a top class chief second. Arcel and Futch were strictly great trainers like Don Turner.

 

Mark Anthony take note. I have written about Angelo before. Upon discharge from the Army after WW2, he went straight to work at the legendary Stillman's Gym in New York where he fetched and carried for the likes of Ray Arcel, Freddie Brown, Charley Goldman, Whitey Bimstein and the Florio Brothers, listening and watching all the time. For several months in the early days he even slept at Stillman's.
He worked with Fighters like Carmen Basillio, and Walter Cartier on his way up graduating to looking after Willie Pastrano and Rodriguez.
His reverse psychology in the gym with Ali was legendary and utter genius. He would tell Ali how well he was doing a certain thing when Ali wasn't doing it. Ali, with his ego would just believe that he was so great he was doing it unconsciously but then come out for the next round and start doing it. Dundee knew if he told Ali to do something, he would probably ignore him.
Angelo knew how to make Fighters winners which is the only skill that matters in a Trainer. Sports journalist who got a break with Ali ? Where do you get this rubbish ?
Towards the end of his career he would come into camp later on and just work on the minor details and later still he was a bit of a celebrity cornerman hired to give a Fighter, perhaps a psychological advantage.
The reason Angelo is sometimes underrated as a Trainer is that he was never precious about what he did. He was happy letting the Fighter take the credit. His book, I Only Talk Winning is a superb read. For additional material, have a look at Ronald K Fried's Cornermen.
Make no mistake, Angelo Dundee was a great Trainer.

 

Nope.When Duran trained at Gleason's gym for the first Leonard fight Turner was there but not as a trainer,he was taking a dollar of everyone who came in to watch Duran spar.imo Turner is not comparable to Arcel ,Brown,Bimstein,Goldman,Steward,Futch,Roach, Blackburn etc. he says silly things like pad work is useless and it came in in the middle sixties,it didn't, the man who originated it ,first with 16oz gloves on backwards and later improvised mitts is the man whom Turner claims was his tutor, Charley Goldman.
Turner also states a boxer cannot overtrain,yet several champions have expressly stated that was the reason for their losses, among them is Archie Moore.
Turner says Mayweather isn't even a very good fighter,that James Toney is the most talented fighter of the last 50 years,that Golovkin isn't anything special, that the only Russian fighter who has been any good is Lomachenko.That Andre Ward was an average fighter,that Marciano ko's both the Klits.In short its all," back in my day".

 

His book was a great read.