Most agree that Ali was at his best from 1964-1967. Question #1 ) Who gave Ali his toughest fight during these years? Question #2 ) Was there anyone Ali should have given title shots to in these years?
Liston quit in the first fight though. I'll reveal my pick later. What was Ellis ranked in 1966 and 1967?
a. karl mildenberger b. eddie machen or perhaps amos johnson who by 1965' had beat ali as an amatuer and was rated on acount of beating cooper and drawing with mildenbuger who both got shots. ali beat all the best guys out there.
a. Karl Mildenburger for his southpaw style and George Chuvalo for his toughness. b. Eddie Machen...he would have done better than Zora Folley..he was a bit less elusive than Jimmy Young but was shifty nonetheless had balls and enough on the ball to survive vs Liston in '60 and he gets my admiration for some reason.
well, it was tough going for him before he quit....the whole eye thing... i dont know about ellis ranking then, and maybe its not a good pick, cause as i look now it was from early 67 onwards that ellis was going against big names...
as for machen he had 4 big losses around that time...patterson, terell, mildenburger and a young joe frazier....i am sure nobody was thinking he deserved a shot...
1 ) Chavalo, I think. 2 ) Doug Jones, who some feel beat Ali in 1963. I think Ali edged a close one 6-4, but a re-match would have been nice. If Chavalo gave Ali in his prime his toughest fight, one can argue that a prime Ali was never really tested.
1) Chuvalo. Mildenberger was awkward, and no southpaw had ever challenged for the heavyweight title, but the German did not inflict the same punishment on Ali that the Canadian did. (Ali was reportedly passing blood after Chuvalo I.) Karl did double him over momentarily with a hard left to the gut just before the end, but otherwise was never really competitive. (They were also using six ounce British gloves.) Most of what little punishment Ali absorbed during his first reign was dished out by Chuvalo. 2) Machen was clearly the best heavyweight he did not defend against during his first reign, but Eddie had his chances against Patterson, Terrell and Mildenberger. He lost each time, and all three went on to get shots at Ali. Muhammad was signed to defend against Bonavana in Tokyo on May 24, 1967, and Amos Johnson was one of the people Ringo beat to get to that scheduled shot, along with McNeeley, Wipperman, Chuvalo and Peralta. Maybe an argument can be made that Frazier deserved to be in line ahead of him, by virtue of Joe's SD win when they first met in 1966, and his subsequent stoppages of Machen and Doug Jones. However, giving a contender with just 12 professional fights a title shot, even an undefeated Olympic hero, might have been too hard a sell to a public still mindful of Patterson-Rademacher. Oscar still had a better overall resume than Smoke at the time Muhammad originally signed to fight Ringo. A quick rematch with Doug Jones in mid or late 1964 could have been sold to the public before Liston II, especially after Doug took out former challenger McNeeley, while their 1963 FOTY was still fresh in everybody's minds. Jose Torres became the LHW champion by taking out Ali stablemate Pastrano. Considering his style and association with D'Amato, and Ali's relationship with Pastrano, Torres might have been a promotable warm up for Patterson in the six months after Lewiston. Cooper, Jones and Banks were all well under 200 pounds, so Jose (who weighed 182 when he decisioned McNeeley that summer) would not necessarily have been seen as too small in 1965.
You sure got a point, but Jones slipped fast. Ali actually dominated him in an exhibition in 1966. After that there can't have been much interest in the fight.
