Ali a cruiser?

We had a thread about this, like we did with Louis.
Yes he would start @ 200, which won´t be any problem pre layyoff. After that, he went up to 229, which might be too much for him making CW.

Louis would prob fight @ CW his whole career until he went short of opponents (if that might happen). Of course he might find another Schmeling there (20lb heavier than Schmeling was) for a double. Not sure if a fighter like Louis, who got dropped by a Hotdog-Muncher and a stiff Surfboard could make it at HW today.

Both Ali and Louis would have a much harder time fighting the >= 6'4" 230lb fellows of course.

 

Why? They both beat men that size (pretty decisively i might add), and they would have significant advantages in speed, stamina, and technique.

 

Because weightclass matters in boxing.
Because legiti 230 pounder hit harder than Schmelings, Galentos and Walcotts and take a better punch. No need to go on here since you know all of this.

As you said they have a speed and talent advantage, which might bring them to the Usyk path.
I´m not sure I like to watch a trimmed 199 Joe Louis fighting Parker, Ruiz, Wilder or even Whyte in shape. Fantastic fighter at CW though.
Imagine prime Louis (aggressor) vs Usyk (backfoot). Awesome bout to watch. Much better than quick Louis wrestling with that chin of 30lb heavier Parker.

 

so you think simply hitting harder than their average opponent is enough to beat Louis and Ali? That's the only category that matters, forget strategy, stamina, defense, or ring iq? They both beat several huge punchers, and both could recover very well after being hurt (especially Ali).

I agree That the elite super heavies like the Klitschkos and Lennox give them hell and might beat them but they were rare talents and we haven't seen boxers who were as well rounded as them in the division before or since. Other than them, who do you think would flat out beat Ali and Louis? Dillian whyte? Pulev?

 

@Glass City Cobra : They don´t just hit harder with their best punch compared to the 30s and 60s, every jab as well as every other punch goes harder too. Every physical interaction goes stronger, clinch, infighting, everything. Its called weightclass in boxing, its no Messi/Maradona vs. Ibrahimovic game kicking a ball.
The thing with Ali from Patterson to Terell is: It doesn´t matter much, since Ali always had the proper distance, as well as having a speed advantage. Plus he punched extremely well and quick from that feet too. It would either need a very sharp good power fighter to do damage here (Louis, Tyson, Wilder, even Hide or Seldon) or a high skilled fighter who could box him (Fury). He was imho to quick and polished to take serious damage from AJ. I would have more concern that a in shape quick Ruiz could do something against him. But thats a big guess.
The thing is I don´t see him fighting this guys in his prime if he came up today. He would simply start at CW and then its a question if he was still quick enough going up in weightclass. Missing punching power, 70s Ali would have an extremely hard time fighting at HW today.
If he (theoretically) fought 230lb up from the very beginning, he might get clipped by harder shots than Cooper or Jones dropped him with. But he still got the quickness and reach to school alot of bigger slower fellows.
I´ll answer for Louis replying to gazelle.

@Gazelle Punch : In the 80s and 90s its a total different picture with that 190lb CW. Not sure if Louis would start there, its close. He´d do well in 215lb devision anyway, but its harder work than in the 30s. But he´d do pretty well and might be the champion. I say might, not because of his punching abilities, I say so because of him taking a good shot. The Shavers, Cooneys, Brunos, Coopers, Ruddocks etc. simply were not as sloppy as Galento, stiff board Baer or paticular his brother. The Schmeling scenario for me is way more likely to happen again. For me there won´t be a long time reigning Louis in the late 70s to 80s ot late 80s to 90s. More skillful, more polished and harder punchers might put him down und would keep him there. If Cooney was in stiff board Baers shoes, this fight might be over with good chance.
I don´t care classic monochromatic adolatry, making a fighters better in correlation of how much time has past. Its simply not rational and contradicts equality comparing fighters. Glorified overvaluation of the past.

Coming back to Louis, he does not have the legs, quickness and durability of Ali (if young Ali = 70s Ali durable) to compare with bigger physical fighters. But he got quick sharp technique in both hands, but I don´t see his power translating as well as it did with the smaller fighters that he matched in quickness. The problem with him taking more power himself is the same than fighting punchers of the 70s-90s.
I´m not sure I´ve missed a point to make here.

Ah there was one: Stop putting Marciano in Alis shoes. Its illogical absurd nonsense contradicting every common sense of boxing. No Messi vs Drogba sport. Apart from that, its highly unfair putting a man who accomplished a perfect 49-0 homerun against a tad bigger fighters with EVEN MORE BIG fighters. A unlimited 189lb +- 15lb devision equals a trimmed down 175 or 190 weightclass. THAT would make a perfect basis for debating about this great working machine Rocky Marciano!

 

@GOAT Primo Carnera Nobody other than Lennox or Wladmir are as good at clinching as Ali. Its not just about raw strength, Ali was very good at using leverage and strategically outmanuevering and keeping his preferred distance. Also, no one but Bowe could fight worth a damn on the inside so Idk why you even mentioned that.

Simply being heavier doesn't automatically mean you will hit harder. Especially the really flabby 230+ heavies who could honestly cut down to 215-220 and still he in good shape. The implication that "every jab, uppercut, hook" etc are gonna be leagues above whatever Ali experienced in his fights is a strange statement and shows a lack of understanding of the mechanics of punching. We're not talking about a natural featherweight against super middle weight, Ali himself actually cut weight to get in shape at 210-215. He walked around at 230. And at 6'3 it's not like a 6'4 boxer, even one whose a "natural" 230 isn't gonna be dwarfing him like a gorilla vs a baboon.

You're also overlooking the power punchers he did face in his own time. Foreman, Liston, and Shavers without a doubt can crack as hard as just about anyone post 70's, especially given that an old as dirt foreman's punching power was praised by holyfield, Briggs, etc.

Not to mention that you're placing way too much emphasis on power. Again, what about strategy, timing, accuracy, stamina, speed, defense, head movement, all categories which Ali has few rivals in no matter which era you pick. The way you wrote the post suggests there is a formula where you simply plug in the numbers and whoever is bigger and hits harder wins. Ali feasted on big punchers and so did Louis for that matter. Ironically, their most difficult fights were with cagey fast fighters and technicians. You haven't explained what sort of game plan these guys would use or how their styles would neutralize Ali's or Louis'.

Finally, mentioning that Ali would start as a cruiserweight is both an assumption and a cop out. You are allowed to weigh as low as 213 as we saw when Wilder fought Fury for the first time. It's kind of dodging the question when I ask for specific 6'4 230+ heavies whom you'd think would actually decisively beat a prime Ali or Louis. Fury is a good possibility but we need to see more of him honestly he only has like 3 decent names on his resume. And Ruiz has so far demonstrated that he may be a 1 hit wonder like Johanson since he fell off very quickly after the joshua rematch and lacks discipline. So it would be kind of crazy picking ruiz over 2 of the best heavies ever based on 1 performance against an inexperienced robotic champion.

 

I'm pretty sure he would been a similar story to Holyfield dominating the Cruiserweights and moving up to heavyweight after he unified the titles.

 

Are you actually implying that these beat Louis?

 

Good post

 

I Think it is time cruiser was renamed heavy as it is in the Amateurs. Then have Superheavyweight as an open class.

the cruiserweights are the heavyweights now. Anything bigger isn’t really a real heavyweight boxer.

Bigger than Ali (and he was big enough) is a super heavyweight. A new enhanced giant sized fighter that never were successful enough before steroids to make a serious impression on the sport.

Ali was a heavyweight.

The Klitschkos were superheavyweight and fought at that class in the Olympics.

so I say put it line with the Amateurs and the Olympics. Let’s do away with the name cruiser.