Ali and Frazier Friends?

In Ken Burns PBS documentary Belinda discusses Ali's liaisons and how she arranged some of them. I found it a bit shocking but she didn't imply she was coerced into doing so. I also read she had affairs of her own.

 

I cannot abide you sounding like you are giving me an order about what I can say-because it does not meet your own judgement of reasonable.
Many folks make endless claims about people, & unless I thought they were acting maliciously or showing prejudice &/or hatred, I would be politely debating their point: ASKING them for evidence instead of trying to scold them. Which will go poorly with me.

This would be true even if you were not mistaken & inaccurate on some points.
First off, neither of us researched that single source-or did a study of related claims.
You have non cause to suggest I believe anything I read on the Internet.
I debate at length what some claim, by definition if there are many claims on many issues & I describe why I believe some or find them more plausible, I am like you trying to be discerning.

You said the book did not site sources, you were mistaken. That sounded like you were not paying attention.
Now it seems you meant-but your words did not MEAN-sources about Ali having sex with minors.
For that we would have to look further. I am aware of no debate about this point-don't you think that at least there is a very good chance that someone as sex seeking as Ali might not turn down a girl with an adult body, maybe not even asking or wanting to know her age? Or finding out later, or possibly lied to...
Now if you shift it to the sources & claims I quoted not saying Ali had sex with minors, that is true.
But neither of us looked into who or what establishes for the author-or others-that he did.
IF you want to amicably challenge me to look into what the author used as plausible evidence of sources I will.
But it is not reasonable to assume without even knowing why he made the claims, that he must be lying or wrong.

Also about lying: when you wrote a single very brief post saying I was wrong about a claim, asserting a premise without evidence-then in the next short post saying it is not true "and you know it"...
Can you not tell that there is no logical cause to think I was "digging in my heels" when there is nothing to think anything said-whether you were right or wrong-that would persuade me or anyone?

In context it still sounds precisely like you were saying I was lying.
You also need to be more exact in your terms.
You repeatedly mentioned ****: I never made a claim like this, nor did anyone as far as I can tell.
IF you meant statutory ****, then you need to say so.
If you just say ****, you are seemingly unknowingly, indiscriminately introducing the "Straw Man" or using force or the threat of same to have sex with an unwilling victim.

You think about the argument you made objectively-don't you agree that some guys got away with *actual* **** for years, even decades, & that many reasons could account for parents not suing?
Chief amongst them not knowing about it.
Or liking Ali, or not thinking they could possibly win a lawsuit...Hell there are Mothers who take their daughters to see & "do" rock stars, & unfortunately sometimes while involved.

Like folks who assume someone who does PEDs will be caught...
Or equally irrationally that everyone or the vast majority must be liars & drugs cheats...
You cannot tell, I cannot tell, if Ali was with underage kids by musing he would have been exposed, OR the opposite.
But throwing in "****" without qualification is misleading, albeit unintentionally.
But since you like me acted in Good Faith, I model good social relations & fairness in saying note I am not telling you "don't ever" do so.

I read Hauser's biography, "ThatOne" seems even handed & objective about all of this.
Edit: another point you are not accurate about is changing the claim in question.
Again I am sure unintentionally.
The source I quoted said Ali had sex with girls "as young as" 12.
NOT that he had sex with children under 12. Which could be 11, 7-or under 5.

I would be surprised after doing research (& you can use your own argument to say why would the estate of Ali not sue the author if the claims were false) if he did not have sex with underage girls.
But I would be shocked if he was a pedophile-which means even just being attracted to pre-pubescent children.
That is is both much less common & there is no indication nor claim that he had even any interest in this, let alone acted on any impulse.


Edit: read this story about author Eig & some of his conclusions about Ali.
He is a highly accomplished biographer & interviewed more than 400 people in the 4 years he spent composing this book.
I am dubious if it is true that Ali did not really like sex that much, that it was performative & people pleasing, but that ex-wife may have some astuteness to the observation.
He talks about how Ali wanted to be loved, in addition to the deep structural & criminal racism he rebelled against.

I think there is some truth that he ha a double standard for black boxers, & although the term internalized racism is not used, I believe his essentially racist, cruel taunts of Frazier involved some of that.
However it is not true that he never treated white boxers like this.
Ringo was pretty light & incurred Ali's wrath...
Joe Bugner spoke about how Ali startled him when they had a friendly discussion before their fight, & when sportswriters came near he suddenly started yelling that Bugner called him a ni**er.
However that can be seen more as promotion & showmanship, although not a responsible use of it...

And the count of the record amount of punishment Ali took in the ring does not even include his infamous 1970's sparring sessions where he welcomed abuse.

[url]https://www.thedailybeast.com/muhammad-ali-was-the-greatest-but-thats-not-the-whole-story[/url]

 

Bro I hope you know NOBODY is reading this

 

I see I'm mentioned. Ali is not only my favorite boxer, he's my favorite historical figure along with the martyred Kennedy Brothers and Dr. King but he was not without flaws. His sexual appetite was prodigious.

 

So is mine. The difference between us is that Ali had them on tap!!!!

A male having a prodigious sexual appetite is hardly a flaw if he's not taking it by force or illegally.

It can be immoral in marriage, depending on circumstances. I've got a few divorced mates that simply couldn't keep the zipper done up.

 

Fidelity has its merits. OTOH, a man is only as loyal as his opportunities and he had myriad ones. Some of it is learned behavior. His father had multiple affairs as well.

 

I'm hearing you.

 

I'm not sure his appetite was as prodigious as Tiger's who also learned his behavior from his dad. I lived in Orlando when his affairs blew up. He was even banging this waitress at the Waffle House.

 

I cannot tell if this is good-natured teasing about the seemingly overweening length, or in the mode of cruelly intended mockery. Nor would other folks, & it is short enough that folks will read it, & presumably you want to avoid even seeming to endorse the juvenile contempt that has damaged this website-for way over the decade I have posted here.

Since you have been decent & rational prior to this thread, I will assume that your animating spirit was jesting, not denigration.
The note was addressed to our discussion, no harm if not others pay it any mind.
But you should at least do so-there are some factual claims you made that are inacurate, & if you presume to correct me you should hear why I think you are wrong-& especially stating anything in the imperative, rather than disputing things politely.

I forgot something-this is not a criminal court, so besides that there is no moral or logical obligation to offer up a whole argument or evidence before every claim-which nobody including you nearly always does-a burden of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt does not exist.
And you even forgot to include "reasonable" there.

Anyway absent you responding to any particular of my detailed argument, I will both assume there is likely no available logical rejoinder, & assume the matter closed & continue to engage with equanimity as a Modern Day Secular Saint.

 

Prob already mentioned - but while in Ali’s camp, as a sparring partner, Holmes observed that Ali walked around with a permanent boner.

Who knows, might’ve been Priapism so it was really a medical requirement for Ali to bleed that thing as and when at all possible - - otherwise he would have had to ultimately live with a permanent non erection.

 

That I must disagree with. It would both imply that Free Will does not exist, at least in major areas of one's life, + there is no variation in resistance to temptation, will power, concern for ethics, systematic efforts to put in place methods to deal with "opportunities", including minimizing them, genetic variation in factors effecting judgement & restraint, etc.

This is demonstrably false.
Even from the early childhood, the "marshmallow test" shows that kids without all the abilities & reasoning skills of adults OR serious consequences differ in how long they can resist eating one-in order to get another later.

And follow up studies into adulthood shows that those who delayed gratification did better as a group.
Just like we all know people who dealt with the same stresses & temptations very differently.

 

I'll read between the lines for you - he's insinuating your length of replies are so long barely anyone will spend the time required to read thru them. He may also be alluding they are long winded and boring to the point of others giving them a wide berth.

This could have been sorted in a few short posts. He bolded the exact part he was calling you out on. I use this almost weekly or better and many many others do too i.e. we don't always cut out the irrelevant banter. It's super common. Admittedly it didn't stand out glaringly because it was such a small part in a huge spiel. So there's that.

You posted about Ali and 13yo girls as if it was fact because it was written in a book etc. Conveniently the book came out after Ali died.

This was what he took issue to. I don't think i'd enjoy someone openly saying i was a pedo with zero proof because they'd heard a rumor or accusation. I'm sure you'd feel the same?

So hopefully that's made it on point and easy to follow. Short and concise. Something people will read and be able to follow.

This isn't a pile on - it's a shortener so it doesn't blow up.

 

You always have a good spirit & healthy outlook, of course no offense is taken.
It does not matter if others read what was a narrow disagreement between us.
But there were many things he was mistaken about that he should read & acknowledge.
I did not say it was written in a book-I heard the number 13 used, & it is a virtue to question it-& sent him the a source witha renowned author interviewing 400 + people & describing mucho sex addict behavior-& the claim was he had sex with girls as young as 12.

We have not examined the sources for that yet.
But he mixed things up; including presumably accidentally saying the accusation was that he ha sex with children UNDER 12.
Oh & a pedophile means sexual interest in-not necessarily having sex with, although that often is the case-pre-pubescent children.
Again, Ali was never accused of anything like that.
Not that having relations with young girls who reached puberty early would be excusable.

But it is important to both politely question a belief-unless malice or prejudice is involved, then some more sharpness is appropriate as Skilled Means against toxic & hateful attitudes...
And to excercise intellectual rigor in being precise.
Such as, again, not using the word ra*pe as what was even accused.
IF statutory ra*pe was intended, that needs to be said.

My post could have been shorter, but not very brief if it meant to convey all of the meaning & corrections involved-while trying to address his legitimate concerns.
But caring enough to presume to make corrections, one should have the interest & patience to read a short essay about my own concerns lol!

 

Frazier gave Ali money...because he was just about broke...Joe helped him get his boxing license so he could fight Quarry and begin his comeback in late 1970...and Ali dumped all over Frazier after that! And don't let the "revisionists" tell you that they were pals...they were NOT! Joe never forgave Ali for his treatment of him...(after what Joe did to help him)...and took his anger and dislike of Ali to his grave! Ali went way over the top!

 

Excellent post and to the point.

Hopefully this poster takes a hit but judging by his reply to you doubtful.

Regarding this part "He bolded the exact part he was calling you out on. I use this almost weekly or better and many many others do too i.e. we don't always cut out the irrelevant banter. It's super common."

I've used this method hundreds, maybe even thousands of time on this forum and I've never once faced any comprehension issues... until now.