ALI AND FRAZIER - Hatred?

I think it is a bit crude to bring this up. Frazier was an excellent fighter, and Ali rightly payed homage to his fallen rival. I am sure egos were inflated/deflated and some take a perverse interest in that, but with Smokin' Joe now sadly deceased, and Ali not in the best of health, why focus on the bad points of the relationship?

They gave us two great fights, both rarely let us down, both were special fighters.

 

:deal

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Frazier was asked if he thought they ever could be friends shortly before Manila, and Smoke laughed and replied that no, he didn't think so. Aside from boxing, they didn't have that much in common, different personalities, interests and backgrounds. Joe did have some good friends among fellow heavyweights and opponents, like Norton, Holmes and Bob Foster. (Of course he famously went out with Bob and got plastered after their match.) He also seemed to enjoy Chuvalo's company in their interview together on youtube.

But even if Ali and Frazier had never been opponents, if Muhammad had never returned from exile, I think there's a limit to how friendly they would have been.

In the last few years, even while in a wheelchair, Joe was expressing pity for Ali's deteriorating condition. Earlier, beyond that, I don't think the acrimony between them was ever like it was between Gene Fullmer and Joey Giardello, who brazenly snubbed each other and flaunted their ridiculous but entertaining nearly 50 year grudge during IBHOF induction weekends for as long as Joey attended at Canastota. (To a certain extent, I wonder if Smoke and Muhammad looked at these two, figured they could do better, and did.)

Sure, I suspect a fair amount of the acrimony was for publicity, although there was certainly legitimate resentment on Joe's part. They didn't quite root for each other the way Ali and Norton were openly known to when commenting live from ringside on one another's bouts. Muhammad seemed to be clearly pulling for Smoke in his rematch with Foreman though, and was adamant with Cosell in reviewing Manila that Joe was still a great heavyweight who absolutely should not retire just yet.

 

With Ali, there never was any acrimony at any point. He was a clown and a trash talker since Liston days and before. Joe was just the next opponent to be mocked/ridiculed/trolled. However, he occasionally went too far at a time when race relations were a bit tense. And Joe read more into it than Ali intended. And who can blame him, given the fall-out that he had to endure, from Ali's flippant, sometimes ill-considered remarks.

I believe for Joe, there was genuine acrimony, at times bordering on hatred. This waxed and waned, depending on the time and Joe's mood.

From watching the thrilla, I got the clear impression of respect on Joe's part, evidenced by his gestures at the end of the first and fifth rounds.

And from the above youtube, some three years after Manila, it is obvious that the jive and banter was positive.

In between those ocassions, and long after both had retired, Joe's situation, especially his financial situation, was not always so good. i believe he brooded at times and brought stuff back to mind that caused him to sound pretty bitter.

He vacillated between saying he was cool with Ali to saying he wished he'd fallen into the flame. Ad he made that U-turn several times.

I's a bit tragic that events took the turn they did at times, but these two are forever inextricably linked by history and destiny. Their relationship was a lot more complex than many have been led to believe by various clips, documentaries etc.

One's gone, and the other is in his twilight years. I'm just glad I got to watch most of both their careers as they unfolded, and I'm still saddened by Joe's premature passing.

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Very interesting question :good

I'll deal with how I see Ali's feelings first,as I think that they were more clear cut.

Muhammad was pissed off,quite justifiably imo,about the way he'd been shafted by the establishment in 1967. To focus his anger,he needed something/someone to vent his spleen on. Joe became top dog in his three and a half year exile,so Muhammad got all his anger out on his rival. Unfairly and disproportionately - true !

There was also the issue of Ali's supreme competitive spirit. He knew deep down in his soul,that Joe was going to be the supreme test of his boxing career,so he went for all the psyhological ploys he could lay his hands on.
Muhammad has since admitted that he went over the top and was only left with the respect that he always felt,deep down,for Joe.


Joe's feelings for Ali were more ambiguous. I honestly believe that he had 'good Ali days' and 'bad Ali days' The This Is Your Life prog is an example of the former. So too is an interview the two did in 1989 for the release of a Thrilla in Manilla video. Joe said something like "Those days are long gone now and now's the time for the two of us to sit down and put things together" And there was plenty of good natured banter between the two in that same interview.

The notorious comment that Frazier made about Ali and the Olympic Flame was a 'bad Ali day'


It all depended upon what mood Joe woke up in.

 

It would be nice to think that when they eventually meet up in the afterlife,they'll hug each other.

 

Frazier would do anything to make a bit of money and stay in the limelight in some way,and if that meant sucking up to Ali and putting on a happy face for television,so be it.

Thank goodness it was a family show,because I dread to think just how low he would have been willing to have sunk.

 

Joe seemed pretty much like a straight shooting kind of man. There's little doubt in my mind that he meant these positive things about Ali at the time he said them.

 

You might not be completely familiar with Goyourownway's posting style.:yep

 

He's a ****ing nobhead.

 

A good part of all of that stuff was publicity. Anybody who thinks it was all 100% real doesn't know the business of boxing. Joe Frazier, while no Ali fan in any way, hated Muhammad a lot less than it is portrayed.

Ali, however, was a TREMENDOUS **** talker, its what he did best besides move and punch, and Joe was an easy mark for him; A little slow witted, genial, and over-the-top professional. Joe was a mans man, and a fighters fighter, but in a war of words, he was never gonna be a match for Ali. Thus, when Ali started his hype war, and saw how easy it was to get a rise out of Joe, he escalated. Alot. Joe might have avoided the worst of it by staying stoic, but he sure didn't; He reacted, strongly, to every jibe, even in the privacy of his camp, and Ali heard and kept poking. Joe was vulnerable in this way.

I have no doubt this pissed Joe off, because Joe in the 80's didn't have many nice things to say about Ali. But, believe it or not, the time I spent with him and Futch, the stuff I heard about Ali that Joe seemed most bitter about was the losses: The manner of him getting pulled before he felt he was done in Thrilla, and that Ali had conned his way to victory in their second fight.

I think the reason Joe has a bit of lasting resentment, beyond that possessed by Ali, is that he came up second best against a guy he never particularly loved. Lost 2 of 3 fights, lost the public image battle, and lost the war of words and reputations. All those losses to your greatest rival.

I have a few situations like that in my own life, and I personally know that those wounds will never stop stinging because of that particular brand of salt.

All that being said, it is impossible to go through what they went through together and not have something healthy and positive there. They not only went to astonishing war for more rounds than most ever meet another single fighter, they made history, and their own resumes, in doing so. Loving feelings and tidings might not have ever been there, but respect and gut-level admiration sure as hell was.