Ali as a composite puncher

And so he should. Any heavyweight can punch when he needs to - the few that can't are the 3 and 4 out of 10s.

Yes, they do, which is why it is worthless you mentioning it. Many, many Ali stoppages came because he had outskilled the other man, cut him up, beat him up, and just worn him down. In the second half of his career the stoppages were often messy, untidy and clearly void of power. He very rarely concussed anyone.

 

I don't agree with the way you have always ranked Heavyweight punchers. It's like they are a completely different breed, but they are not. You rate any of them without a fair KO straight down to a 3 or 4, and they doesn't fit with me. There's a reason for 5's and 6's and indeed 7's.

There are umpteen big hitters in all the lower weights, and being a heavyweight does not automatically mean there is a multitude of KO punchers. They are also punching big and often durable men. Heavies are mostly less co-ordinated than the lighter weight fighters anyway.

Another thing of substancial note is that Ali seldom went after ko's and nor did he often gun with maximum power. As a matter of fact he often fukked around to the point of nonchalance.

If the man wanted to fight in a much much more compact, serious and efficient manner there is no doubt at all he would have some impressive stoppages, and indeed concussions. The showman in him was quite detrimental to more destructive punching.

On another note it's great to see you posting in here again. Few have watched more boxing than yourself or enjoy it more.

 

Good sparring session going on between you guys. Keep it up.

 

It's all fun and good natured banter.

 

Ta :good

This bit has confused me. I really don't know what you're implying, and think you are clutching at straws. You can actually remember me rating heavyweights at 3 or 4 out of 10? I can't. And I wouldn't rate them down there if they had an average-to-good knockout ratio, I'm very strict on what's average and what's not.

And that's why Ali is a 5, maybe 5.5/10. He was an average puncher. He has tonnes of other qualities so I don't know why people go to such efforts to big him up in this area as well.

He had a solid knockout percentage, that's true. On closer inspection, hardly any of those were concussive knockouts or stoppages. He landed only a handful of truly 'wicked' shots in his filmed career, and I don't care if he 'could have' tried harder, that's the fact of it. He legitimately stunned and even knocked out some tough fighters (and I would expect him to! He was a heavyweight boxer), but that was an occurence that was few and far between. The rest of them were worn down over a long period of slicing and slashing, not thumping.

An above average puncher of around the 6 or 7 mark, where most people rate Ali, is Jersey Joe Walcott or Evander Holyfield (7). Fighters who more often threw weightier shots and hurt opponents with blows of a more thudding nature.

Ali was great in most areas, but don't tell me he was a good puncher. He was a smart and brilliant ring general, but far short of a good hitter. Yes, he may have been able to hit harder if he sat down more, but he didn't, it wasn't his style. It's like me assuming Joe Louis could box better if he didn't throw so much weight into his punches. He didn't, so it doesn't matter.

 

It's just something that happens once in a while. The opponent is off guard, maybe a bit tired, and Ali catches them in the sweet spot and puts in a little bit more effort than usual. It's nice when it happens, it just happened only an average amount of times for Ali.

 

I never mentioned luck, I just said it doesn't happen that often. The knockout is of course down to Ali, either setting up or lulling an opponent into a false sense of security, or seizing a given opportunity, then hitting them in the right spot with the right amount of power.

 

Yes. These are things Ali used to good effect regularly, but he was never a natural puncher so true knockouts were less frequent. Now a fighter like Joe Louis, he used the same set of skills but set himself to knock the other fighter out, and with a bit of knack to aid him, did.

 

Well it's a tricky subject, being so analytical. You could say those skills contribute to being a composite puncher, but then they are also the skills necessary for just landing punches regardless of power and winning the fight.

I wouldn't describe Ali as a composite puncher for two main reasons;

1. His primary aim was not to knock out the other man

2. He didn't have a complete arsenal; body punches were scarce, uppercuts was slashing rather than crunching, and so were most of his hooks

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Does this come down to 'Ali could have knocked out more fighters if he tried?' It does sound like it. But anyway; there are countless examples. Skilled fighters who could produce destructive knockouts, ain't it? Ezzard Charles, Ray Robinson, even down to Pernell Whitaker who was deceptively powerful, or rather accurate, from time to time. Moreso than Ali, probably. Larry Holmes is a man who I'd rate above Ali for raw power, coming in at a solid 6.5. Jose Napoles at welterweight didn't seem to have smashing power but his positioning, placement and economy made for some painful knockdowns and stoppages.

 

Not a lack of power. Just, again, average. He busted a half decent amount of jaws but not enough to be hailed as anything more than fair for his size.

And I don't believe he claimed that many elite jaws. Two, three.

Yeah that's what I meant, Charles and Robinson were big hitters but also posessed the same skill set that Ali did. Basically saying that skilled boxers do come more powerful than Ali.

Bonavena and Foreman...


... Simples. Foreman, for a start, was exhausted - there's no arguing against that one. And Ali caught him right on the jaw with his most powerful right hand - in that situation, I'd be shocked beyond belief if Foreman didn't go down. He faced big hitters in his career, but ones who didn't match up very well. Hard punchers who weren't all that clever, or couldn't take what was being thrown back; Frazier, Cooney, Morrison...

Bonavena had lasted until the fifteenth round and was also fairly tired - he must have been. And he walked straight onto a tight hook, which didn't seem all that powerful, just well placed. The sort of punch Jose Napoles might land. And that just started the downward spiral; two knockdowns followed, not powerful ones, just accurate shots on a wide open target.

It sounds like I'm taking away from Ali here, but I'm actually not. He was accurate, quick, and though not powerful, capable of pulling a true KO out of the bag here n' there, but most of all, he was smart. He has deceived so many people. Fans will say he had the greatest chin - no, he had a very good chin but top survival skills to match it. People say he's one of the strongest heavyweights ever - no, he just knew how to tie a man up and use leverage to wear the other man out. Smart. It's the best attribute.