Ali as a composite puncher

We are both treading a fine line here...

... You are almost implying that Ali is a great puncher because he was able to stop a couple of men that nobody else did. Technically that would be true, but it's down to factors other than punching, isn't it? The punches were just the icing on the cake, not the definitive reason like, say, the punches Louis felled Schmeling with.

I mean, where do you stop with this? Is Archie Moore a better punching heavyweight than Sonny Liston because he twice stopped Bert Whitehurst to Sonny's nil (just)?

Now on the flipside, there are many fighters Ali should have knocked out but didn't. And I'm sure not all of them are down to not trying.

 

I'll add to the thread that I personally thought the Liston 2 KD was a legit temple shot that Liston didnt see coming and he was probably caught cold with that 1. I also blame the KO/stoppage fiasco solely on Walcott who shouldnt have counted until Ali was ordered to his corner (which he wasnt) and shouldnt have stopped the fight

 

Need to get ready and **** off out, but will be back tonight!

 

Ellis floored him too and Folley, don't you think he may have just walked on to quicker shots that he didn't see or didn't anticipate (due to tiredness in some of the cases)? It seems only the more skilled operators could floor him.

 

Take care man. Don't get too drunk. :good

 

They didn't have 15 rounds though. Ellis was also able to hurt and floor him when he was a lot fresher, Ali didn't. It is a fine stoppage nonetheless.

 

But the point is, you're going on about how 'unique' it is, but the fact that Folley and Ellis were also able to do what the likes of Frazier couldn't in 25 rounds tells its own story. Just like Kalambay stopping De Witt when Doug easily ate up Hearns' best shots. Sometime a 'cute' shot can floor a fighter, swell an eye. Finnegan stunned Hagler far more than most fighters ever did, he was no puncher, but when he throwing good shots and high volumes it will make a difference.

"Stamina or no stamina, no one did that to Foreman", well Peralta shook George to his boots right on the bell in their distance fight, who knows what could have happened if he'd had an extra 30 seconds. George was spent.

By the way, I haven't seen the Folley one, I've seen a Pathe News type clip of the Ellis one- the initial knockdown only if I recall. I heard the Young one was a slip.

 

Well, it's a rsf if anything. Oscar is stunned initially,then Ali is standing virtually on top of him when he rises. The same again the next knockdown. Oscar is still getting up when the ref calls it off.

You're acting like it was impossible to put a tired Foreman away. If the Lyle knockdown (the one where Foreman landing face-first) happened later on he may have won by knockout too. If you're going to go all The Sundays on me and say "here's where the story ends" and it's all based on 'facts', then why the thread? Like Manassa mentioned earlier, look at the fighters Ali didn't stop and there's some who claim he couldn't break an egg like Patterson and Cooper. To me, Ali had some very good stoppage wins but was only a fair puncher.

It was. It's not coincidental to me.

 

Other guys could have put a tired Foreman out, but few others if any could have frustrated Foreman to that point of exhaustion. If Ali was a fair puncher, Conteh, he was so because as someone earlier mentioned he spent the bulk of the fight on the balls of his feet. Ali was first and foremost a defensive fighter. Your feet have to be planted as you know to deliver power shots. Ali was genius at stretching his guys to the limit, sensing when they were ripe for the taking, and then closing. Also to address another poster's comment, (sorry, forgetting who said what), but with re to the guys Ali should have taken out but didn't... Ali fought each fight, each fighter based on what was needed, his best prescription for that fighter. When he faced a boxer, he was often happy to carry him for a lot of rounds. He'd mix it up, come in and fight him on the inside, very UN-Ali. When he faced a power puncher he kept away from, in and out like a Burley McGrain, nothing more tiring than punching air, and then he'd try to finish him.