Ali As The #1 Heavyweight...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Russell, Mar 30, 2008.


Page 3 of 8
  1. GazOC

    GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff Full Member

    61,460
    42
    Jan 7, 2005
    I make Ali number 1 on accomplishments given the better opposition he beat and I defineatly think he's beat Louis head to head.
     
    GazOC, Mar 30, 2008
    GazOC, Mar 30, 2008
    #31
  2. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,759
    2,324
    Aug 26, 2004
    I HAVE lOUIS AS MY # 1 MARCIANO AS MY #2 AND ALI AS MY 3.....
     
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    #32
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    114,648
    51,435
    Mar 21, 2007
    What on earth is the thinking in having Ali behind Marciano??! The man had seven title fights. Funnily enough this is the same number of fights Ali had against top 20 opposition all time (Liston x2, Frazier x3, Holmes, Foreman).
     
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    #33
  4. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,759
    2,324
    Aug 26, 2004
    I Like The Way Marciano Entered Into The Title And Left Still On Top" Like A Perfect Snapshot" He Defended His Title Against 5 #1 Contenders And 1 #2 And Never Walked Into The Ring In Less Than Top Form, Marciano Left With Another 4-5 Fights Left In Him But For A Swarmer It Is Hard To Do. There Is No Hiding Or Rope A Doping Or Clinching, Its All On You...ali Is 3 And He Had A Style To Last But A Lot Of His Later Fights Like Young, A The Norton Fights, Foster, Bugner, Lubbers,spinks He Did Not Look Like A World Beater
     
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    #34
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    114,648
    51,435
    Mar 21, 2007
    Fair enough. But Ali has more greats on his resume than any other modern champion and has multiple reigns as world champ. He didn't go out on top but he did beat great fighters whilst past his peak.

    I don't think Marciano's accomplishments really compare, frankly.
     
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    #35
  6. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,759
    2,324
    Aug 26, 2004
    ALI'S WINS OVER lISTON AND FOREMAN WERE BIG, THE 1ST FRAZIER FIGHT (WHERE FRAZIER WAS PRIME) PROVED GREATNESS FOR BOTH BUT JOE WON. FOREMAN I THINK WOULD HAVE BEEN BEATEN BY WALCOTT,POSIBLY CHARLES AND EVEN QUARRY HAD A CHANCE BUT ALI GOT TO HIM 1ST, GREAT WIN BUT YOUNG FOLLOWED UP. LISTON HAD THE LOOK AND WAS IMPOSING BUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1ST FIGHT WAS A GOOD WIN BUT #2 was a dive....to me Joe Louis was the best of all because of the way he won the title rematched every tough opponent and ducked no one. the one fight he lost he destroyed Max S. in the rematch. Ali was great but 1,2 or 3 ....all good
     
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    Bummy Davis, Mar 30, 2008
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    114,648
    51,435
    Mar 21, 2007
    I think there is a very serious argument for placing Louis above Ali - but I tried if for a while and I didn't like it. I am a big fan of Louis and i'm not desperatley keen on Muhammad, but Ali's resume is the equal of any fighter at any weight post Louis, in my view.

    That, combined with skillset, seals the deal.
     
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    #37
  8. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

    43,958
    13,327
    Apr 1, 2007
    Liston was 1) Getting Older and 2) Had all of two rounds fought in the previous years.

    Oh, not to mention he was out of shape in the first fight and hurt himself Vitali style.

    Not much of a win. The second Liston fight is even worse.
     
    Russell, Mar 30, 2008
    Russell, Mar 30, 2008
    #38
  9. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

    43,958
    13,327
    Apr 1, 2007
    On paper there's no comparing Ali's resume to anyone elses. Period.

    You dig a little deeper and cracks begin to appear.

    It was Archie Moore's last fight.

    Floyd was holding his own and then began to have back spasms. The second Floyd fight was Floyd's very last as well.

    As already mentioned, Liston had two rounds under his belt in the last few years and was out of shape to the point of injuring himself.
     
    Russell, Mar 30, 2008
    Russell, Mar 30, 2008
    #39
  10. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

    42,502
    405
    Jun 14, 2006
    It's all too see easy to say all of this in hindsight in the world of boxing.

    Nobody gave Ali a chance before the Liston fights, so we should stop making excuses for Liston, and credit Ali for the victory.

    There are no cracks. Ali beat everybody that was put in front of him, and if he was beaten, he'd have a rematch and go 2-1 against them.

    Ali is clearly the number heavyweight, in terms of level of opposition, impact on the sport, and in a h2h sense also.
     
    Addie, Mar 30, 2008
    Addie, Mar 30, 2008
    #40
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    114,648
    51,435
    Mar 21, 2007
    Yeah, and Ali was young and green!! The LAST thing you would want to see your young fighter confronting in the ring is the smartest fighter in history (arguably) confronting your charge with an axe to grind.

    A really good win for the young Clay.

    Right. Patterson - one of the greatest heavyweights to have ever lived - was doing very well when he was stopped by Ali, who punched specifically to cause cuts, the "corkescrew".

    Liston may have taken two dives. That doesn't help to explain Foreman, Frazier x2 and the countless contenders he laid down, including guys like Terrell, Norton, Chuvalo, Bonavena etc etc etc etc etc.
     
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    McGrain, Mar 30, 2008
    #41
  12. sthomas

    sthomas Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,002
    6
    Jul 14, 2007

    Agreed........
     
    sthomas, Mar 30, 2008
    sthomas, Mar 30, 2008
    #42
  13. sthomas

    sthomas Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,002
    6
    Jul 14, 2007
    Ali's my #1 ATG and #1 head to head, but Marciano is one guy who would be a nightmare for Ali simply because I think he's substantially better than Frazier as well as what transpired in their computer match. Not saying that Marciano would win but I'd have that a pick em' fight.
     
    sthomas, Mar 30, 2008
    sthomas, Mar 30, 2008
    #43
  14. rinsj

    rinsj Active Member Full Member

    812
    393
    May 19, 2007
    Ali was #1. Louis was KO'd ugly twice. That never happened to Ali.
     
    rinsj, Mar 30, 2008
    rinsj, Mar 30, 2008
    #44
  15. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

    42,502
    405
    Jun 14, 2006
    You feel that Marciano is substantially better than Joe Frazier? In terms of accomplishments yes, but nothing else. Had Marciano fought the same opposition as Frazier, he wouldn't have retired undefeated.

    Ali would have an easy time with Marciano who was far to slow and far to easy to hit to pose any problems for someone as fast as prime Ali. Even in the event of Rocky hitting Ali on the chin, do you think he could knock him out? Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, and Lyle weren't able to do so.
     
    Addie, Mar 31, 2008
    Addie, Mar 31, 2008
    #45
Page 3 of 8