Ali As The #1 Heavyweight...

I think Ali takes the cake. Ali beat Frazier, Foreman and Liston via Knockout. That alone is hard to top, but when you sprinkle in wins over Norton, Lyle, Quarry, Shavers, Young, Patterson, Bunger, Ellis, and Terrell who can catch him? All of the above men are top 100 heavies in my book, though I do think Ellis, Bugner and Terell could be replaced in the next two decades.

However, Ali seemed to have trouble with some mid level guys and his ring record of 56-5, might be " 54-7 " ( Norton III, Shavers, Young ) if the judges were fair. If we throw out the losses to Spinks, Holmes and Berbick, and end Ali's career in 1977 after the Shavers fight when Ali was 35 his ring record might be " 55-5 ". This is not un-beatable and leaves an opening for others.

I do not think Louis opposition was good enough to rate as #1, and in truth he seemed to struggle more than Ali did vs mid level guys.

I do not think Holmes opposition was good enough to rate as #1 either, but I think part of that has to do with Holmes being unlucky. Holmes would have done a Jimmy Young and then some on Foreman if he fought Foreman in 1977. Holmes never took advantage of an older Frazier either. Blame Don King and Ali's popularity.

I do think you can argue that there were a few fighters who were more physically gifted that Ali was...Jeffries, Liston, Bowe, Lewis, and Klitschko, but in the end, Ali still has the better resume. I do think Lewis has a big resume. Some historians are finally starting to see the light. The late great Hank Kaplan felt Lewis was the best he ever saw, and he saw them all from the 1930's to 2008.

 

Ali got beat up UGLY by Holmes and Larry was not a puncher, had that been Tyson in the ring or Marciano it would have been uglier...Ali fought too long...Schmeling was an experienced puncher and Joe L. was young could Cooper be compared to Max, yet Ali was more vulnerable to the hook, Louis and Holmes the right

 

You should keep out of all Ali threads. I wonder why he got beat by Holmes? Can you sink any lower atsch

 

I don't agree. For me Ali is in a class of his own when it comes to physical gifts. He was by far the fastest heavyweight ever, even faster than the likes of SRR. He also had great stamina, a great chin, was physically strong, very hard to cut and had absolutely amazing recuperative powers. I can't think of anyone else who would have gotten up after getting hit with the left-hook Frazier hit him with just before the end of one of the most gruelling heavyweight fights ever. And he got up within 3 seconds, and wasn't even that hurt!

To go with this he had one of the best boxing brains ever, an immense mental strength and was extremely brave. Also, he has a great record, even more so considering his 3,5 years of exile from boxing. The only thing you can say against him is that he wasn't one of the great punchers and that he had stylistic flaws that made him vulnerable to left-hooks and counter-jabs.

I have the outmost respect for Louis, but Ali is without a doubt my number 1 heavyweight.

 

Ali was not the most physically gifted fighter. He was not as physically strong as Jeffries, Liston, Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko, was lighter at his peak weight the above fighters ( Call Liston even ) , had an average hook, and did not hit nearly as hard as the above guys I mentioned in general. Yes, Ali was very fast, but physically gifted means many things.

If Ali was so gifted than how come he could be out boxed by the likes of Norton or Lyle, and look poor vs Jimmy Young?. How come he could not keep Chavalo or Frazier off him? How come he had fits with tier two talents? It is because he was not as physically gifted. Bigger, harder hitting and stronger are physical gifts too.

Ali was also limited in his versatility on offense. Yes the jab was great. The cross very good, but the uppercut was missing, the hook was very average, and there was next to no body punching.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Ali is #1, but there are opening for others to argue for.

 

Ali's physical gifts were absolutely peak for Norton, Lyle, Frazier and co too

:blood

 

Marciano is not as slow as people claim though. Speeders like Charles and Walcott could not keep the Rock at bay, and I dont think Ali will. It will be Ali's chin and own will that will gut out a victory over Marciano in a close fight imo. It will be a great fight imo, maybe on the level of the first Ali Friazer fight.

 

Outside of Fraizer, and perhaps Foreman, Marciano had a higher punch output than ALL these fighters, and unlike Foreman, the Rock wont tired. If it was all about speed ete, than Walcott, Charles, Matthews and others would have a easy points victory. But that was never the case with Marciano's ablilty to slip the jab, and bang the body/chest/head.

Marciano would pin Ali on the ropes, and make it a close fight imo. Marciano look pretty fast vs Matthews. And Walcott of couse. And Charles.

 

:good very observant

 

You must be a moron, because the answer was to Ali never got beat ugly.....I think Ali was a great fighter but he was not a GOD like some people believe, Louis fought a very smart and hard hitting Schmeling early in his career and came back from a loss to overcome..What if Ali had faced Schmeling that night instead of Cooper..When Ali lost to Holmes he was no where near condition or Prime but it was still a good thing he fought Holmes and not a young Tyson, Marciano,Dempsey or Louis..then he would have lost real ugly....IMO the way he lost to Holmes was even uglier than the way Louis lost to Marciano or Holmes to Tyson, I winced with every punch Holmes hit him with ..and Ali did not even have a spark of fight in him. Ali was one of the top 3 to 5 depending on your opinion of him and the other greats, I have seen him fight live many times and was not always impressed but his overall merits were great...and by the way his name is ALI not ALLAH

 

Same here.

Ali's quality of opposition is second to none but Louis's dominance and tenure as champ gives him the edge

 

[FONT=&quot]Norton beat Ali before Ali defeated Frazier and Foreman!. Don't say Ali was shot in the first Norton fight. He wasn't. He simply got beat up.

Ali looked good vs Quarry and Bonevena before facing Frazier. In hindsight, these two were perfect warm up fights for Ali because they were somewhat similar in style and tendency to Frazier. It was Frazier's speed and firepower that gave Ali trouble in 1971, not Ali's age ( 29 ) or lack of warm up fights. Also, Ali had not learend how to clinch in the first Frazier fight.

While Ali was a bit older vs Lyle, he was also getting out boxed by a slower fighter.

[/FONT]

 

You're confusing things here. For one thing his hook, uppercut and bodypunching has to do with style and technique, not physical gifts. And you can have trouble with opponents even though you're physically gifted. But most of the fights you mention took place when Ali's gifts had eroded and/or he was out of shape. The Ali who met Young and Spinks had little in commonin terms of physicallity with the Ali who beat Williams and Terrell.

Yes, there were heavyweights that were stronger, but not too many and too much stronger (this is after all a guy who could control monsters like Liston and Foreman on the inside). And the fighters that were stronger than Ali were on the other hand a LOT slower and in most cases had lesser stamina and lesser recuperative power as well.

I'll break it down like this:

Speed (hand, foot, reflexes): Ali stands completely on his own here. You probably have to look among light-weights and even smaller boxers to find someone who compares favourably.

Recuperative powers: Definitely among the best. There are probably others that are equal or close to being equal in this aspect, but I can't think anyone who I think had clearly superior recuperative powers.

Ability to take a punch: He stood up for some great punches to both the body and the head from some of the greatest punchers ever. Chuvalo probably has a visible edge here though, and maybe old Foreman, but not too many others. According to Norton, hitting Ali to the body or on the arms was like hitting cement.

Stamina: Among the best. Marciano and Chuvalo might have had better, but they were so style-wise different that it's hard to tell, and it's hard to compare with Jeffries and others from his era. But in his prime Ali could move and punch more or less constantly for 15 rounds without tiring visibly. Pretty good for a guy of 210+ pounds.

Physical strength: There are some that are stronger, but most of these are from the last 20 years, when the emphasis on weight-lifting has been much greater. For a guy his size Ali was really strong. Norton for example said that Ali was much stronger than Holmes, who was about the same size. And that he could control a peak Foreman on the inside also says a lot about his strength.

Punching power: Ali's not among the great punchers, but he is far from being the powder-puff puncher that some make him out to be. When he sat down on his punches he could do some damage. He was after all the only one to ever KO Bonavena, Foreman and Wepner, and one of the very few to stop Liston, Frazier and Lyle. Not all that was down to pure punching power, but he threw some nice punches in doing it.

Tendency to cut or get injured: Ali was never stopped due to cuts or injuries. He was only cut once in his entire pro career (against Bob Foster) and never suffered closed eyes or anything like that. The only really serious injury he suffered during a fight was a broken jaw (that is pretty serious though).

So, of this seven categories I rank him as oustanding in one, at the top or close to it in five, and about average in one. That makes for one great physical specimen IMO. Especially when you take into consideration that we probably never saw him at his physical peak.

 

Bokaj,

While style and technique are important for the hook and the uppercut, some fighters are naturally gifted for the hook. They are the types with big shoulders and good twisting muscles. Ali to me was not a naturally gifted left hooker. The same can be said about fighters who are naturally gifted with the upper cut.

I agree. However, there were some heavies who both hit harder and had better stamina than Ali.

Many fighters were nearly as fast as Ali was. Ali is #1, but not completely on his own.

I think Ail was a good actor. He was hurt more than the other fighters realized, and had Shavers, Lyle, Norton or Foreman pressed it at the right time, they might have floored Ali. Yes, Ali had great recuperative powers, even though it did not look that way Vs Cooper after he got up. If that round had more time left in it, who knows.

Agreed. Ali could take a heck of a body shot. However why did he take so many of them if he was that fast? I think his stamina, and physical gifts were not enough to keep guys like Chavalo off of him.

Agreed.

I think there were a few stronger before Ali, and quite a few stronger after Ali.

I'm not sure if Liston quit or tanked it. If Bonnaevna, Wepner, or Frazier were 12 round fights, Ail takes them the distance. I think the Lyle fight was stopped a trifle early, and that one was a late Ko. Foreman ran out of gas. Ali to me was more of an attrition KO artists than a banger. Solid hitter, but not special.

For what its worth, Ali lost an amateur match on cuts, and had to postpone a few fights due to injures ( Liston II comes to mind ). Norton hurt Ali as you mentioned, and I think the Shavers fighter really damaged him as well. Ali colapsed in the ring after the 3rd Frazier fight and said he was close to death.

I could buy into this last paragraph. Ali was physically gifted, but a few others in my opinion had more gifts. We saw Ali's prime in 1966-1967, but he was never matched vs a prime great opponent until the Frazier fight, and Ali lost that one at age 29 with two warm up fights under his belt vs rated guys.

 

Ali's second fight with Liston was postponed because of a hernia,not in anyway boxing related,his performance against Frazier the first time is remarkable I think when you factor in that he had 18 rounds of boxing in 3 1/2 years,and was facing the no 1 heavyweight in the world.The 3 1/2 years Ali was out of the game are the " stolen years " that would have been his prime,imo.