Ali As The #1 Heavyweight...

Do you consider either of the Liston results even vaguely valid? I certainly don't. As for the Foreman win i have always admired him for it, but if anybody else fought like that, it would not be received in quite the same way. Anybody that perceived Liston or Foreman invincible with their limited skill sets, were clearly not very well informed; that is a very unrealistic perspective.
As for the Marciano fight, Louis was a shell of the fighter that he used to be. How long Marciano had been boxing is irrelevant as his style never evolved anyway, he was what he was. Which also happened to be a nightmare for fighters on the slide. His style is akin to Ricky Hatton's in that light, only with a truck load more power. It is Kryptonite to old fighters.

Although i can understand the Ali argument, I find it hard to look past Louis.

 

Marciano's style did evolved, You can see a big change in tactics from the Louis fight when compare to LarSarza II or Moore.

 

Altering his tactics is not evolution. He got the job done in the Louis fight. That is what was required and it fit in with his philosophy anyway. i hardly think trying to fight like Walcott would have done him any favours. He had a certain skill set and he used it. If i watched through all of his old fights again i'm sure i would see slight changes in his skill set, although it is never going to be anything to overwhelming. He was hardly really green.

 

Hardly changeing,?? Marciano was getting hit with the jab less, and had better defenses, than trying to bull his way in like he did vs Louis.

LarSarza was missing nearly half or more of his punchings once the Rock warm up from the ring rust of couse.

 

Ali looked great against Bonavena. What drugs are you on? Ali never looked great against Bonavena or Frazier. The Quarry fight only lasted 3 rounds so you never saw him fade bad as in the aforementioned fights. Simple fact is 1966/7 Ali woulda beaten they much easier. Frazier wouldn't have won more rounds than that fighter. He was far quicker on his feet, his timing and conditioning were at their peak. Watch Ali move v Terrell or Williams compared to the Ali movement v Bonavena or Frazier. Compare this or keep living the lie.

 

I don't know about that one Ben, I have highlights of every round of the fight, and Walcott essentially gave joe a butt whooping. No disgrace to Louis though, walcott was brilliant that night.... few champs in history would have been able to deal with. Louis gets a boatload of credit for knocking him out behind on cards in rematch evening things up.

 

It was nobody but Walcott's own fault that he did not press the fight in the last two rounds of the first Louis bout.

His corner told him that he was going to have to make this B & W if he was going to win over the politically influenced judges who were there to protect Louis from this relative unknown.

 

Louis #1
George Foreman #2
Jack Johnson #3
Ali #4

Ali was great but very over rated when considered against all the other greats. If he had given George Foreman a rematch and defeated him again, I would have him at 1 or 2.

 

I have Joe Louis at # 1, and liston and ali switch back and forth at my number 2. Sometimes I ponder whether to rank Liston # 1, over Louis. Liston was that good IMO.

 

How much do you think Liston lied about his age? It seems many people say he was about 5 years older than he said.

 

It won't surprise you that I disagree somewhat here as well. Yes, Ali's best punch was the jab, followed by his straight right. And, yes, he didn't throw hooks or uppercuts that much and they weren't as textbook as those of for example Joe Louis and SRR. But when he threw them he used them with great effect. For example, in his second fight with Quarry he threw a triple left hook/uppercut that landed with great effect. It was by no means a triple tap, but three clean, hard punches that all landed, but extremely rapidly. He also finished off Quarry in that fight with one of the best left hooks I've ever seen. The left hook he decked Bonavena was just as good, and that one was a textbook counter hook.

His disdain for body shots is well known, but he did work the body sometimes when felt it was a useful approach. You can see this in the fights against Williams, Terrell and Al Lewis for example. Of course, he won't go down in history as a famous body-snatcher, that's for sure.

Anyway, his preference for head hunting is by no means relevant for what physical gifts he possessed.

 

I have several rounds uncut of the first fight. Wlacott was the better. He was robbed plain and simple.

Walcott was getting the better of Louis in the second fight, until he decided to get cute, and got caught. Does anyone have the Louis vs Wlacott II scorecards. I'd love to see them.