Ali As The #1 Heavyweight...

Ali Liston #1 is valid until somone, maybe Ali tells us definitively otherwise. Many knowlegable people still consider Liston a highly ranked ATG @ heavy and also consider him a well rounded fighter. Was the stuff that got in Ali's eyes, that almost had him quit, part of the conspiracy as ruse to cleverly mask the cover up??

Foreman was destroying guys like Foreman and Norton and Ali was seen as a hasbeen, that win was a huge deal. If he didn't fight Ali, Foreman would have kept blasting guys out but Ali ruined Foreman psychologically.

Marciano is one of the most misunderstood talents in the history of boxing. He evolved throughout his career. People seem to think that he just went in there and threw bombs all night and nevermind the defense. Not true. He was a very good defensive fighter but he was so unorthodox with his rubber like waist that he was unpredictable, without a set pattern of bob and weave (see Joe Frazier). I stand by my previous statement that a climbing the hill Marciano beat an over the hill Louis.

 

I would take louis over him, however, h2h, Ali ranks higher.

 

In my honest Opinion he was really about 2 years older than he is listed as. I got this opinion from reading sources about his early birth age being listed in the 1920s consensus. He had a daughter that was 17 when he fought Ali, so I believe he was older than 32!!! A couple times he was listed as 2 years older than he really was when he fought in the amatuers, and he looked it too.

 

The scorecards were as following.......


5 rounds to 4 1 even Walcott

6 rounds to 3 1 even Walcott

5 rounds to 2 3 even Louis



So walcott was up on the cards

 

Well you know its only opinion. I did some immense studying of liston after I realized that I was underating him and really re-evaluated him....not just film but take into account everything including accomplishments.


When I saw Sonny Liston, I saw incredible resemblence to Joe Louis in the fact that they both were as complete fighters there were in heavyweight history. When you look at liston you see he has good size 6'1 212lb, but its his Physical measurements 15" fist 84" reach that make him a freak of nature similiar to Randy Moss of the Patriots. Liston used these incredible god gifted Genes to perfection. You then look at his overall skill level.......he packed the knockout punch in both hands, He was a great finisher, He had incredible sledgehammer accurate Jab, Very good mobility and upperbody movement(liston was quite slick in his own right), very sound boxing fundamentals, solid blocking defense and head movement defense, good enough handspeed, killer instinct, top chin, and yes he had heart. When you look into the chin factor you see he took flush bombs from big sluggers like nino valdez cleveland williams without blinking and came back to Kayo both, as well as hard hitting Mike Dejohn. His chin certainly never let him down in his prime. His heart was certainly tested early in his career vs marshall as well as vs williams and he responded like a warrior, his heart appeared to let him down vs ali which makes you question the legitimacy of the fights. When you look at his accomplishments, Liston has it all. He went an incredible 7-0 against top young dangerous contenders Eddie Machen, Floyd Patteron, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez. He won all 7 fights by dominating fashion without any controvery. Williams, Machen, Folley are all argueably top 35 heavyweights of all time and Patterson is a top 20 heavweight of all time. All were 25-27 years of age at the top of there games, besides Valdez. This is an impressive group of prime contenders. Liston cant be critisized for fighting old men, or green contenders. Also, when you look at his early career he was thrown into the wolves immediately in his 5th pro bout racking up 2 victories against contender Johnny Summerlin, a Damm good fighter. He was also scheduled to fight HOF experienced Harold johnson in just his 12th pro fight, and he beat olympic champ 6'4 220lb ed sanders. Clearly Liston cannot be considered being carried by his management early in his career. Compared to other HW champs liston has one of the most accomplished resumes to go along with his overall talent. So what flaws does liston have in his resume? Practically none except the Ali debacles which clearly effect his legacy tremendously to viewers depending on how you look at it. i am a big ali fan too, But when I look at the fights I think the first was probably genuine, while the 2nd was clearly a dive so It should be taken off the books. The first fight though, I see a out of shape aging liston who fought just 8 rounds in the past 4 years clearly not at his best and this should be taken into context. look at listons body from the first patterson fight to the 2nd, he is noticeably softer. He knocked out patterson in the 2nd fight cause Patterson was scared shitless. I dont think the first ali fight demonstrates how Ali would have done vs an In shape Prime sonny Liston. You look at his post ali career, All the top contender ducked him, he couldnt get a fight. Liston was so old and fat during the Leotis fight, its amazing liston was able to dominate knock down a good contender in leotis for 9 rounds probably the only fight he ever had that put his question into his chin and considering his advanced age and Leotis power he gets a pass.... So all this up top clearly leaves me with reasonable evidence of Liston being one of the greatest of all time. You look at liston matching up against the greats.....against the skilled superheayweights, he had the physical tools to go jab for jab and not get controlled on the outside by them, he had the inside fighting skills to manhandle the swarmers, he had the strength,technical skills and punching skills to blast away the speedy boxers....you name it he could do it. You look at a liston vs louis fight, and louis is gonna have alot of trouble avoiding listons jab, liston had the strength, power in both hands to knockout louis. he had the uppercuts strength chin and infighting skills to cope with louis superior handspeed and combinations in cloose quarters, he had the tools to control louis from the outside messing up his rythem, and he and had the coolness to sit back in the pocket and calmly box and not get caught into one of louis traps.


I rate very strictly. If I thinked for a second marciano couldnt take the talented big men, i would not even rate him in my top 10. But I do. I feel his whole style was built to take down the large talented men. When I look at his career there is some evidence that backs up my theory. I know the Joe louis fight doesnt show much how he would do vs talented young big men of later eras, but it does and you can get glimpses of how marciano would preform vs bigger taller talented men. Louis though 37 and reflexes badly slowed, But lets face it he still had a remarkable jab some heavy handed power and quite polished boxing skills. He also was 6'2 215lb of muscle and solid shape for his advanced age. Marciano showed glimpses in this fight how he would fight a man of Louis size and skill in later eras. He showed he could take a big mans jab, avoid it, he showed he had the power to knock a big man out unconsious. Just little glimspes that you saw vs louis. He showed he could take a couple heavy left hooks from a big man without falling. once again just little glimpses.

You look the Carmine Vingo fight, though he didnt have the weight, he was 6'4 tall with a reach over 80". He also was young 21. Charlie Goldman described Vingo has a "thundering puncher", Reg Gutteridge called Vingo a big time puncher, marcianos brother personally told me rocky always told him Vingo hit him harder than anyone he ever fought by far. Vingos Kayo percentage was misleading. This fight was an all out war and this wasnt a tired old men marciano was facing but a young lion.......Marciano proved he could reach and brutalize a man of Vingos height and reach despite his short reach, so once again just little glimpses.

You read up on sparring sessions......marciano made 6'4 Hurricane Jackson puke in the ring from a body shot, He beat up big Nino Valdez in a sparring session according to JG made him mentally quit.....


Once again by no means did Marciano fully prove nor do his fights or the examples show that Marciano could really beat up a young talented powerful big men from latter eras, but it certianly showed glimpses of what he COULD do. When you look at his style of Breaking down his opponent, Hail Mary punch, Non stop punchrate, incredible strength, amazing heart, Helluva Chin, Low Crouching Rolling Defense to avoid tall mans jab.........you put it all together and you realize Marcianos style goldman formed was designed to defeat a big powerful man by tiring him out wearing him down and breaking him mentally and physically until he could land the hail mary punch or just grind him out in latter rounds. Part of the whole plan was the Big guys would underestimate a 5'11 190lb stub armed fighter. Also one must ponder would marciano be heavier in the mold of tyson(both 5'11) if he were fighting today with modern technology? The only superheavyweights that had the all around talent to possibly avoid this are the All time great heavyweights that were big. Some would, some wouldn't. When you look at the big heavyweights in history, some had the power in both hands to slug with marciano, some had the strength to muscle with him, but few if any had the combination of power strength stamina needed to outbrawl rocky marciano. AND THATS WHAT YOU NEEDED TO OUTBRAWL HIM. You need 3/3, and few had all 3 traits. cause 2/3 aint gonna cut it.

 

I like Suzie and Sonny loads, but yes there is no way possible to realistically rate Liston anywhere near Ali, let alone above him. Most for starters will put Liston closer to peak than Clay when they fought. Sonny also has no greats bar Patterson on his record, solid as his second tier might or might not be.

 

What do greats mean on your resume if you didnt beat them anywhere near there best(note this is not a slap in the face to marciano)......when you look at HW champs how many HW champs can you really saw beat more than 1 HW ATG in there prime? not many

Look at who liston beat Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams. John I dont know if you seen the film of these 3 in there prime but all 3 were quite possibly top 35 heavyweights of all time, and all 3 were young in there primes. They may not be "Great" but they certainly were "very good" at the Ken Norton type level. Then you add to the fact Dominance of victory, Liston uncontroversially beat all these men clearly and fashionably. Machen and Folley had the talent to upset many HW champions, and Williams had the power handspeed physical tools to blast away many HW champions. Liston went 4-0 against these 3, 6-0 if you include the patterson fights. What other Heavyweight champ twice knocked out another great heavyweight in 1 round like liston did to patterson?

I think the combination of wins over Machen, Folley, Patterson 2x, Williams 2xmakes a remarkable resume. Nino Valdez, Mike Dejohn, Johnny Summerlin 2x, wayne bethea, are just icing on the cake. A great Win Resume. All these guys except Valdez were under 30 and had over 20 pro fights when Liston fought them

 

Sonny Liston had a horrible title reign, made an admittedly great run up the ranks but during a supremely depleted era. I'm sorry, Cleveland Williams was big and "looked the part" but was a B- fighter on his best day. His list of accomplishments is not even in the same book as Ali, or Louis, or Foreman, or even Holmes and Lewis. This is not even debatable.

Liston as a top-5 all time heavy is the product of imagination and supposition rather than accomplishment. I tend to put him right on the cusp of the top-ten.

 

Liston had already Cleaned out his division Pre-title, so the fact he only had 1 title defense shouldnt count against him. Liston had already beaten convincingly all the top contenders in the division outside of Johannson(whom liston challenged and Ingo declined) and Harold Johnson(whom liston was scheduled to fight but johnson pulled out cause of Injury).

I dont know about that. He faced A level boxers like Machen and Terell, liston and none of them outboxed him.....Knocked out Terell, lost a hotly contested split decision in rematch, and he fought to a draw with Machen. He gave a prime sonny liston his toughest fights. Pre bullet wound, not one boxers embarrased williams like many boxers do to big sluggers. Williams was A level slugger, he had the handspeed that other top sluggers like Ron lyle lacked to compete with the top boxers.

 

Holmes?


The best guys Holmes fought


35 year old Ken norton- Controversial Split decision win

12 fight Novice Tim Witherspoon- Very Controversial split decision win

19-8 Mike Weaver- Stunned badly throughout the fight, very close

Carl Williams, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, all Novices. Williams was robbed, and bonecrusher had larry in big trouble. Berbick won quite a few rounds against larry.




Listons best opponents he beat



Eddie Machen- Peak of his Career, Very skilled Technician, convincing unanimous decision win.

Zora Folley- Peak of his Career, very slick master boxer....dominating early KO win

Cleveland Williams- Peak of his career Dangerous fast big slugger, 2 dominating wins

Floyd Patterson- Peak of his career, Dominating 2 early Kayo wins


Liston fought equal Quality opposition in his prime, except won in much more convincing uncontroversial fashion.





As for Liston vs Foreman I think Liston accomplished quite alot more, but I wont get into it in depth. Liston was thrown to the wolves early, while foreman had one of the most padded record ever. Both lost to Ali, Liston fought and beat a much wider range of contenders than foreman. He also never lost to a jimmy young near his prime, nor did he come close to losing to C williams like foreman did vs Lyle. Ellis, frazier both refused to give liston title shots in late 60s, foreman got 3 title chances in the 1990s. Head to Head I think Liston clearly beats George.



As for Lennox, Liston never was knocked out in his prime twice by mcall, rahman caliber fighters by one punch.

 

Bear in mind i am a Liston fan Suzie.

Tho i agree Liston's resume if nowadays oft underrated he still can't blow wind up Ali's ass whichever way we look at it. This is the bone of contention here. Not Holmes who you name in another post.

When it comes to putting Ali's Foreman, Liston, Frazier and co vs those you name for Sonny it's just no contest mate. Add to this Ali whupped him twice H2H and we shouldn't even be having this debate.

 

Seconded. It's mightily close for sure.

 

For all practical purpouses they are tied.

Any difference between their acomplishments is down to personal interpretation of their respective eras.

 

While I'm not adverse to ranking Louis #1, I want to know; how do you purport to know that Louis outlanded Walcott in that fight? And if he did, he must not have been landing very hard or cleanly, because Louis was the one with a badly swollen eye and busted lip by the end of the match, while Walcott was unmarked (and of course Louis was the one on the floor twice, while Walcott was never close to going down). A majority of the sportswriters at ringside had Walcott winning, and let us not forget that many sportswriters were intensely biased in Louis' favor at this time, too. Shirley Povich wrote that the first Louis-Walcott fight was "the boldest robbery in modern heavyweight annals."