The most shocking thing about this fight is the crowds reaction after the decision. Louis was a loved man, yet the crowd booed the decision lustily. Walcott got a standing ovation.
I dont know where I'd rate Ali. He's among the top echelon of great heavyweights, IMO. I think the idea of having them in a strict order is flawed. We get too pre-occupied with this "ratings" thing. But it's irrestible. I've made about 1000 different version of "the list" at various times. Ali is always on it.
SuzieQ makes good arguments for Liston (I'm a huge Liston fan too). But to really argue for Liston above Ali, a convincing account of Liston's losses to Clay/Ali needs to be expounded. I wasn't at all impressed by the way Liston surrendered against Clay in Miami. Maybe the fight was fixed but that doesn't excuse Liston. We have no real proof, and anyway he still forfeits the fight. Clay fought better and deserves to be credited with the win. The second fight is beyond bad and needn't be discussed. Maybe we can say (of the first fight) "Liston just got old", and it's likely that Liston hadn't trained properly since Sept. '62 (I doubt he trained for the Patterson rematch). But training is part of the fight, IMO, so that's no excuse. Maybe Liston did get old, but he had still looked at his peak up to '62. Inactivity and 1st round KOs may have eroded him quickly. Still, he was coming off a good win (only 7 months prior) so he needs to be considered as still somewhere around his peak the first time against Clay. Ali himself has a horrible loss to Leon Spinks while he was champion, but his decline had been apparent for a few years by then. It's still a bad mark but it's far easier to assess than Liston's loss to Clay.
Okay, I must have missed this part of the post first time around. That basically answers my questions. I kind of agree, but I still tend to rate a fighter going in to a fight off his recent form. Since I wasn't around for the first Liston-Clay fight I try to figure how I would have seen Liston's chances/form at the time. I do agree that Liston looked different against Patterson the 2nd time, mostly in the way he fought. But he still wiped him out in 1 round, and that counts as one of Liston's best results, so I still need to give Clay credit for beating him. (Like I give Douglas credit for beating Tyson. Some people point to the Bruno fight and the loss of his corner team, but Bruno needs to be given some credit for making Tyson look sloppy. After that, Tyson looked at his best TKOing Carl Williams in 1 round, so I give Douglas credit.)
Ali defintely deserves tons of credit for beating Liston. Even 1964 liston was still a very good fighter. Hell the 1969 Liston leotis fought was still a dangerous fighter.
Alot of huge liston fans out there truelly beleive the 1st fight was fixed as well. Do I believe that? as of Now its hard to believe it without strong evidence, but I can see some glimpses from there point of view that point to it possibly being true.
He surrendered very easily. It was disgraceful really. I think either (a) he was just gassed, hadn't trained, had under-estimated Clay, and just quit because he KNEW he would get a rematch. Or (b) it was fixed. A lot of people say the fight was terribly one-sided and that's why he quit, but I thought Liston was doing okay for much of the fight (though psychologically perhaps not, if he had expected an easy easy night). The fight was NOT terribly one-sided but perhaps it would have become so if Liston had carried on in a fatigued state. Also, a thing to consider is Liston's loss of hunger as champion, especially when he realized he wasn't going to be accepted as a role model and that the added fame and status actually brought him more trouble. This at least accounts for why he didn't defend it like he should have, and may hint that perhaps he would have thrown it away. I think it's most likely he just quit because he wasn't in shape and he realized Clay was a real class fighter, the best he had faced. I also think his "shoulder injury" may have been genuine, but not the full story. His quitting made it look like a fix, and it will always have me wondering "could it have been ?", but we will never know. Sure enough, it wasn't Liston at his best.
I also think scoring the fight it was pretty close after 6 rounds, I only had Ali slightly ahead. Liston wasnt getting totally embarrasingly out boxed the way some reports describe.
Ali is #1, he may have been beatable, but Louis haven't beaten the likes of Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Ali is special, he succeeded when all odds were stacked against him, he always rose to the occasion, he should therefore be #1. I have tried to argue with Louis/Ali being interchangable due to the fact that I like Joe so much, but Ali deserved it from his grueling fights through the years.
A lot of huge Liston fans believe a lot of innane things, like that Sonny was a top-5 all time heavyweight.
I think he was being embarrassed. Big loudmouth kid Clay was making him do whatever he wanted to! The only reason Liston won the 2nd round is because Clay did **** all. He ran because he knew if he made Liston miss a dozen times early, Liston would tire and Clay could come back after the 5th. And that's exactly what happened. Ali was a master strategist who didn't mind losing a round of two at the cost of the bigger picture. The thought of the first fight being a fix sounds ridiculous to me. Liston threw huge bombs, some of which landed. Note that at that point, Clay's jaw was very suspicious. Cooper nearly had him out, Banks had him down, Liston would murder him! If it was a fix then surely Liston knew he should've gone easy (like he did in the 2nd fight). Also, quitting between rounds is a huge risk because you don't know whether it would be ruled a TKO6 or TKO7, affecting the bets.
There was no fix. That is just something that Liston fans have to cover behind because they can't accept that their hero gave up like that. Liston was simply frustrated and tiring badly and knew that he would lose, maybe even be KO'd as Clay predicted. Can you think of a greater humilation? I can see him quitting just to avoid that. It's a far likelier explanation than a fix, anyhow. I don't really know what transpired in the second fight. But the loss in the first fight might have destroyed Liston's confidence, the way Foreman lost his confidence in Zaire. I mean for a guy who relied on his intimidation and power like Liston did, it must have been just devastating to not be able to knock out a guy even when he was blinded!
Liston fought a total of 8 rounds in 4 years, if thats not Rust I dont know what is. Party life was catching up to him, he weighed a career high 218lb, it wasnt the weight his was his body. he looked soft, and he had slowed down. Ase was taking its toll, he was prolly around 34 when he fought ali.