Ali As The #1 Heavyweight...

The reason stories of a fix surround the first fight is NOT because "Liston fans" want to alibi their fighter.

The reason stories of a fix surrounded that fight is because Liston, an unpopular champion, a two-time jailbird with mob connections, surrendered lamely, and to many people at the time almost inexplicably - in a heavyweight championship fight.

Sure, it's reasonable to say he was embarrassed and shocked to find Cassius Clay was capable of beating him, and that's why he quit, that seems like a reasonable explanation, and while it is speculation it is also some sort of understandable explanation.

But that's an unprecedented thing for a heavyweight champion to do. Totally unprecendented, even to this day. Even Tyson's "bite" surrender was, (and I'm speculating) based largely on an ACTUAL SEVERE BEATING that Holyfield put on him 6 months earlier.

I know people will show me pics of Liston's face, and embellish (or maybe they just appreciate) the "whipping" Clay put on him, but in truth, I think everyone knows that Liston didn't take half the whipping you would expect a heavyweight champion to take before quitting and surrendering the title. He took some stinging blows and was confronted with a frustrating opponent but he wasn't a conclusively beaten man, he never looked in danger of being KO'd, he wasn't reeling around the ring like Willard versus Dempsey, or being utterly and painfully dominated like Terrell later on against Ali. It looked a possibility though not a certainty, and it certainly hadn't happened in those 6 rounds.
Why cant people just be honest and admit that ?

It was this readiness to give up that raised suspicions. Also, a low-regard for Clay's ability, and the perception of Liston as the exact type who would throw the title like that.

It wasn't Liston's fans or friends who made the "excuse" of a fix, it was actually out of disgust that people accused him of tanking. It was as an attempt to grasp at how a man who was good enough to be heavyweight champion (an achievement that demands some degree of courage, toughness, will to win, and pride) was capable of giving up so easily.

I would love to say the fight is 100% satisfactory and legit in my eyes, but I see a guy give up at the first sign of trouble and I have doubts and issues with that too. I dont think the "fix" story saves Liston's reputation at all, nor does it dent Ali's reputation in my eyes. I simply dont rule the fix out as a possibility, that's how LOW I feel Liston's ultimate performance was. If I can say that the fight was definitely NOT fixed, I still have to say the ending of that fight stinks !

Liston loses out either way, and he lost the fight BIG TIME by the very action of admitting defeat like that.

Actually, some of Ali's biggest fans seem more threatened by the "fix" claims than they should be, IMO.
Nothing can really detract from how brilliantly Clay boxed, just as nothing can really detract from how utterly pathetic Liston's surrender was.
I think both things can be acknowledged and treated quite seperately. To say Clay looked good because "Liston was tanking" is bull****, and to say Liston quit because Clay was brilliant is bull**** too, and in fact that's just excusing Liston's behaviour.

 

:good

 

The judges had it deal level (one of Clay, one Liston, one even) but I'd say Cass was a couple ahead: 4-2. But with all the momentum.

 

MDWC, are you a big fan of John Conteh? if so what do you think about his first bout with Matthew Saad Muhammad the 15 round barn burner

 

Great fight. John totally outboxed Saad for most of it but tired near the end, his jab was a real classy instrument. The knockdowns gave Saad the duke which maybe he just deserved after summoning up his seemingly boundless energy and stamina. Although the controversy has more to do with the cuts and the illegal substances used to stop them...oh and the fact the ring doctor (who'd threatened to stop it) mysteriously turned into another person after round 10. :!:

 

I take your initial points about Rocky being far more durable than all the other big hitters Ali faced, with the exception of Frazier, but let's not compare fighting Ali to fighting Walcott, Charles, or Matthews?

Marciano will not look fast against the fastest Heavyweight in the history of the division.

Marciano's strategy probably would be to pin Ali on the ropes, but with Ali's leg's, and his ability to fight off the ropes, Marciano will be getting hit a lot. It comes down to this. Marciano has good staminia, but so has Ali, Marciano has a high punch output, but Ali has a huge advanatage in speed consideringhands, feet, and reflexes. Rocky is also a huge puncher, but Ali had an all time great chin so it would be unreasonable to think Rocky could do what neither Frazier, Foreman, or Shavers could do (even after Ali's prime).

The fight will last 15 rounds, and during those 15 rounds, you'll have Ali dancing around the ring popping jabs off into Marciano's face. Occasionally, Marciano will get frustrated and pin Ali onto the ropes, but his work will fail to be effective, as Ali had a good guard, especially on the ropes.

 

I agree that Liston didn't take a bad beating in any sense. But round 5 and 6 says a lot to me when I watch that fight. In round 5 Clay was blinded, but Liston still couldn't tag him effectively, and in the next round Clay hit him at will while Liston hit nothing but air and looked like he was tiring rapidly.

Yes, even considering this it is strange that he quit. But for me it's far, far likelier that he quit because he knew he would lose and didn't want to face the indignity of being KO'd out by a fighter that was said to have no punch and that he was so supposed to walk right over, than that it was a fix. Liston looked on several occasion like he wanted to do some real damage to Clay (especially in round 5), and while there's no proof whatsoever of a fix, a case can be made that Liston intentionally blinded Clay. The only thing that is left really is Liston's mob connection, but with that logic you would have to suspect many of Liston's victories of being fixed as well, and for some reason I don't see anyone doing that.

While I understand that people still feel puzzled by Liston's surrender, I just don't think the fix argument holds water. And therefore it kind of annoys me how flippantly people use it.

 

Well lesser swarmers like Geroge Chuvalo who is not nearly as fast as the Rock imo, had Ali on the ropes, sure Ali won most of the rounds, but I cant help but think a better swarmer in Marciano would get the job done better.

 

Those are all fair points.
:good

 

Yeah, the Chuvalo fight is maybe the strongest argument for claiming that Rocky would be a handful for even a prime Ali. Rocky was just as durable as Chuvalo and nearly had as good a chin, but he was definitely a more lethal puncher. I would like to think that Ali would have been more careful not to absorb that many bodyshots against Rocky though, otherwise he would have been in trouble.

 

The first Clay-Liston fight wasn't a Fix. You jokers have too much time to waste

 

But Ali was always not more careful MOST OF THE TIME, like Joe Fraizer I, had Ali been not playing around with Fraizer, and taking that fight serious, Ali perhaps could have goting the points victory. Even with Fraizer III or yes even II, Ali was playing around. He was even playing around with Liston. Its almost impossible to ask Ali to take these type of fights serious sometimes. The only time perhaps he WAS serious was perhaps Foreman.

 

I'm not sure I agree. Ali did play around a lot, but against tough opposition he always seemed serious enough. I think most of the playing around he did in those fights you mentioned was because he was in trouble and tried to convince his opponents he wasn't.

I don't think he could have done much differently in FOTC. His legs and conditioning was, due to the lay-off, not what they needed to be against that formidable version of Frazier. In the second fight he was in better condition and looked more businesslike as well.

Anyhow, had Ali met a prime Marciano and not taken him seriously he would have been in for a rude awakening, that's for sure.

 

If Ali was not playing around with Fraizer, than why oh why was he thowing thsos pitty patter punchs??? And playing, YES playing on the ropes???

 

As I said I have it down to that he was very, very tired. He badly wanted to win that fight and he definitely didn't take Frazier lightly, so I can't see any other reason.

Sure, against lesser opponents he could often look disinterested and needlessly give away rounds (the fight against Lyle being a good example), but against Frazier I think it was merely an act.