Ali beat the best opposition in title matches. Who's #2?

McG,

Don't look on the surface for the answers to the Liston-Clay fight.
No one can go by just the fight itself.
Because the fight in itself was not that great, and by all counts, the bout was pretty much even.
No one was badly hurt, and there seemed to be only a handful of clean shots.

What shocks most of us, is that before this fight nobody thought much of
Cassius Clay. Many considered him a joke and laughing stock.

Maybe he grew up, right before our eyes, or Sonny got slower, than his already
slow approach.

 

Well, I don't even think Liston looked that bad.
He was somehow almost staying on even terms with Clay, but it was his complete lack of resolve that made his performance pathetic, more than anything else.

No, I don't think he quit unnecessarily, I know he did.
The other options are possibilities but the unnecessary quit job is undeniable, it's there on film for all to see.

The reason why he quit unnecessarily are not important to this particular discussion, and are ultimately never going to be known to us.
All I'm saying is that he quit, while he could still fight. He could see. He could throw and land punches - with both hands. He was steady on his legs. He just quit.

He wasn't superb. Quitting like that is not superb.
And, I repeat, I'm not interested in the possibilities as to why he quit, that's your thing. You have two theories on the "why".
I'm more concerned with the fact that he DID quit, and it was pathetic.

I don't fail to consider the injury at all. I simply don't care.
There's a standard that great fighters and champions are held to.
Fighters fight with injuries all the time, it's part of the game.
He landed a left jab moments before he quit, thereby proving that he could lift his left and use it.

I think my views on the fight I pretty much how 90% of people viewed the fight for years, if not decades.
The revisionism that has sanitized the fight, cleaned it up and placed it in the centre of the Ali canon is relatively new, helped along by an agenda to rehabilitate Sonny Liston back into the fold of the greats too.

 

Yes and No. More or less.
I think there are several heavyweight champions who you could argue and debate about endlessly, trying to decipher their "quality of opposition", measuring one guy against another. I don't believe their are clear-cut answers.
I don't believe Muhammad Ali is excepted from this.

 

Un,

You right on one thing,,,,,,,,Sonny sure didn't go out on his shield.
I just re-watched the fight, and though Steve Ellis and Joe Louis thought Clay won the
1st Round, I didn't and either did Bernie Lovett.

At the end of the round, plus another 12 seconds Sonny is the aggressor.
After the 4th bell chimes, and Barney Felix calls an end to the round, you can see
Sonny grin and laugh, as to say 'What a Joke'.

 

I thought Clay edged the first round, and showed excellent movement avoiding most of Liston's blows. But Liston basically made Clay miss almost all his shots too, something that Steve Ellis seemed to overlook in his commentary.
I love Joe Louis but he couldn't call a fight to save his life, and was a hopeless junk-head by this time too.

 

Score-Cards from Liston-Clay I,
Rounds 1 thru 6

Referee; Barney Felix;
C L C ,,, L L C = 3-3-0,,,, Even (57-57)

Judge; Bernie Lovett
E L C ,,, L L C = 3-2-1,,,,, Liston (58-56)

Judge; Gus Jacobson
C C C ,,, L L C = 4-2-0,,,,,,Clay (58-56)

The fight was scored on a 10-point 'Must' system
All rounds were scored 10-9,
Round 1 was scored Even by Bernie Lovett.
Round 5 was scored 10-8 for Liston, Bernie Lovett.

So as far as a dominant fight by Cassius Clay, as per told to us by Steve Ellis and Joe Louis,
after 5 rounds of scoring, Sonny Liston was ahead by 1-point on the Referee's card,
3-points in one judges card, and 1-point down on the other judges card.

Barney Felix, the referee, broke the fight down beautifully in an article.
Sonny really poured it on in the 5th, burning himself up, along with his massive arm muscles, that took time to
recouperate. Instead of trying to allow himself a rest time in Round 6, he foolishy, for some insane reason,
kept plodding forward, aimlessly shooting arm punches.
At the end of the Round 6, it looked like his arms were dead weight, and his legs looked they were locked.
Clay, for that matter, didn't look like a fresh lion, he was slowing down, but his thinner and lean arm muscles
recouperated faster.

Listons corner, pretty sure it was Teddy King, not Willie or Milt, yelled 'snap it Champ'.
I thought he meant to tell Sonny to snap Clay's arm or neck. So I was watching them closely, not to let
Sonny try anything.
But, I guess he was meaning for Sonny to snap the jab, not push it out there.

 

I like Barney Felix's card.

 

:-(

 

:yep

 

UN,,,,,

I thought Sonny won the first round, mainly because he won the first half
handily, and did land a thudding right hand body shot to Clays ribs early.
It was the best of the punch of the round, even though it landed within the first 30 seconds or so.
Even Steve Ellis went OOOOH!
Cassius did throw some nice clean punches in the second half and a nice flurry before the end of the round, to try to steal it.
Maybe Bernie Lovett was right, an Even round.

Sonny did look pissed in those last 10 seconds, and additional 12 seconds after the bell.
Then he lost the scowl when the Felix stopped the round, 'grinned and laughed'
Great stuff!!

Makes you want to forget Round 11 versus Alfredo Evangilista, doesnt it!

 

I wish I could ....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvuCcuyj24&feature=related[/ame]

 

UN,

Thanks for ruining my night!!

If I had an 'Ice Pick' in my hand, I'd jam it in my eyes!!

Howard Cosell,, 'I don't want to beat a dead horse,,, but this has been dreadfull'

Glad you enjoyed, another DON KING PROMOTION

Still have to say, everyone seems to judge or come to a conclussion on one thing.
The 6th Round.

Not sure who reported or said it, but a Liston aide did report to the N.Y. Times associate
sports writer, that the only thing Sonny Liston said in his corner between the 6th and 7th Rounds was,
'I can't go on any longer'

 

I agree there are no clear cut answers. But you have to be way, way more critical of Ali's wins than others' not to give him the top spot in this particular regard. Liston, Patterson, Foreman and Frazier are after all in most's top 20 at HW. If you're determined to pick every win apart, you can find holes. But you can do the same with just about every win for every fighter.

 

Well Jeffries made Finnegan cry!