Ali beating Foreman was a more incredible performance than Frazier beating Ali

You'll always get a couple of clowns thinking there's a dispute as they're in a minority of 1%. No one with much credibility thought Frazier didn't win. In fact, in 1972 when Ring ran a poll on who'd win the rematch, Frazier was streets ahead in the voting, largely based on his convincing performance in Fight I, no doubt.

 

Only in 2012 is this case, but in 2011... coin toss.

 

That's how I recall it too. By the end of that year,though,a lot of experts favoured Ali. No doubt helped by his busy schedule over that annum. And Frazier not having much action. Only his two glorified exhibitions against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. Who would have thought that within the first four months of the following year,that two more heavyweights were going to gatecrash the 'Ali-Frazier party' ?

Of course it was indeed ridiculous for any sane person to have thought that Frazier did n't win FOTC,as closely contested as it was.

 

frazier was favourite for FOTC so not a big shock in him winning for many. Foreman was a big favourite v Ali so it's a no brainer.

 

Solid post.

I think that has convinced me to change my vote from Frazier of Ali to Ali over Foreman.

I still think Frazier beating Ali is the better win, but I'm more and more convinced that Ali beating Foreman is the better performance.

 

Easier said than done. While I can accept your argument of Ali's style was difficult for Joe, I think when you factor in age and Ali being able to beat Foreman at the peak of George's powers both physically and mentally it balances out any perceived advantage in style which is why Foreman came in as the favorite.

 

Hard as it is to believe,I actually knew someone who thought that the verdict in Ali and Frazier's first fight should have gone to Muhammad,and that Joe deserved the nod in their second bout......:huh

Strange,eh ? As close as the two fights were,the decisions definitely went to the right person each time.

 

Both Joe's win over Ali,and Muhammad's over Joe,seemed to verge on the supernatural

 

Retrospect suggests that Frazier's win carries more weight.

I'd say the Foreman win is more 'incredible' for reasons already stated, although let's not lose sight of Frazier's superhuman effort that night in Madison Square Garden.

I mean who else would you have beaten Ali that night? I don't like rusty being thrown in there. You don't fight a rusty fight sticking it to Frazier all night long like that while catching fire in the process.

It's like when one watch's Marciano and Walcott beat the hell out of each other and then looks back and goes "Nah, actually, Walcott was pretty old." There is truth in action and Ali that night in '71 was magnificent. Frazier just happened to be better.

 

Frazier's win was over 15 rounds, turning back an excellent, determined version of the so-called GOAT, so it was a better sustained performance. His rival would not go away, though Frazier still had enough to clobber him near the end and seal the deal.

In Zaire, Ali's rival ran out of gas practically after 5 rounds and was gone before 8. The difference between both victims in these two bouts is that Foreman was rightfully considered an invincible monster.

So, Frazier's win is the better performance and Ali's is the more astonishing feat.

 

Nice summary,Prime.

 

No need to apologise! - one can't please everyone, and as I said in my response, may one shouldn't type one's name in a search engine!

I think my prediction was partly down to my "embarassing man-love!" - couldn't bring myself to pick against Ali. Seriously, I thought the way to beat Foreman was not to stand in front of him, but outsmart him and eventually tire him out. I certainly didn't predict rope-a-dope - what I had in mind was more the way Jimmy Young later beat Foreman (speed).

While I'm on, I'll add my thoughts to the debate - call it "man love" if you like, but I thought Ali's win over Foreman more incredible. Frazier at his peak beat an Ali past his peak - Ali past his peak beat a Foreman at his peak.

Regarding Ali-Frazier Part 1 - you could tell Ali hadn't recovered from his layoff. The Bonavena fight showed his timing, reflexes etc weren't what they had been. Something people forget is that, during the FOTC build-up. Ali suddenly announced he was going to meet Jimmy Ellis in a 10-rounder the previous month (February). The FOTC promoters promptly put a block on the idea - couldn't risk Ali getting cut, or sustaining a freak injury - and it was generally thought to be just more Ali hype. I don't think so. I think Ali realised he wasn't back to his best - and 10 brisk, competitve rounds against a smaller rival who wouldn't hurt him would have been an excellent tune-up. But it didn't happen ...

 

Nicely summed up :good Also,Ali still had a jail sentence hanging over him,which finally got quashed in the summer of '71,so he had to get the FOTC in as quickly as possible.

 

I've already responded to this - Wally Bartleman and Reg Gutteridge, respectively - but, re-reading for the nth time, I've suddenly realised something. It wasn't after Ali-Foreman that that happened - it was after Foreman-Frazier, Bartleman having picked Foreman! Apparently Wal felt Frazier was looking lackadaisical in training. Incidentally, I interviewed Frazier's trainer, the late, great, Eddie Futch, in January 1975 - and he told me that when he got out to Jamaica he wasn't at all happy with what he saw. He felt Frazier and the rest of his camp were selling Foreman short - with the result we know ...

 

Foreman TKO2 Frazier is a better win than both