Ali Ducking Foreman and Young?

First.....Ali retired after the second Spinks fight so a rematch was not in the cards.

Second.....Foreman clamored for a rematch title shot for three years....from after losing in 74 to him retiring after losing to Young in 77....never got one. You will find many interviews where Ali mentions giving George a rematch but he in the end never did. Unlike the Dempsey era where significant roadblocks out of Dempseys control prevented a fight with Wills there was nothing preventing the former champion Foreman from getting a rematch....he never did however. I can tell you I was at ringside at a boxing event in northern nj in early 1977. When Ali was introduced many in the crowd were screaming...as I was....when will you give Jimmy young a rematch! Just as many were yelling the same concerning Foreman.

Look back on all the hwt champions who lost their title from Marciano to Ali. All got instant rematches for the most part....except Foreman.

Many thought Ali lost to Young in 76 yet he never got a rematch. yes this was at the end of his Alis career but the bout could have been easily made....it was not.

You can't blame Dempsey for not fighting Wills when every roadblock was in the way for the fight to occur and at the same time give Ali a free pass for not giving Foreman a rematch. There was nothing in the way of making this fight happen.

 

Dempsey did not duck Wills....the fight did not come off because of the prejudice of the early 20th century. The powers that be would not allow a black man to get a title shot. For the most part out of Dempseys control. lots of public clamor and interest YES. Both fighters wanted the fight to occur. However the powers that be did not want a black man...any black man...to fight for the hwt championship. Wills himself later in his life felt this way and publicly stated as such.

No need to give the previously undefeated former champion a rematch in what was perceived by any as a controversial initial bout???? Why did Liston, Walcott, Patterson, Johanson, Ali all get instant rematches? Foreman was ducked plain and simple since there were no barriers for the fight to take place. Ali needed to and should have fought Foreman by early 77 at the latest....never happened

 

It has to be said that Foreman did n't help himself very much by his inactivity during 1975. I'm not counting that farcical 'Foreman meets five' exhibition.


Yes,after beating Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier in a rematch,George put himself back on top of the heap during 1976,but after the third Norton fight,Ali was ageing as a fighter and he knew it. Prior to Manilla,especially,Ali was still willing to take on all comers. Post Norton III,Muhammad no longer had the appetite for long draining bouts.

 

I don't think Ali could have beaten Foreman again, or more accurately he didn't want to
take punishment like that again. Personally the first time I saw that fight I was amazed. Ali's speed of the ropes, and the sheer volume of shots that he took from Foreman was insane even if he was rolling/using the ropes to displace the force. Ali did KO a prime 40 and 0 (37) Foreman. He shattered Foreman's aura of invincibility and imo a rematch regardless of the results wouldn't affect his legacy much, if he won again hey hes the greatest. If he lost to Foreman in a rematch he was at the tail end of his career and lost to the strongest and hardest hitter in the history of the division.
Jimmy Young, ok maybe thats a duck because the first fight was controversial and Young would have stunk his way to a victory in a rematch.
I really have to study the history of Dempsey more.

 

Absolutely not. I think Ali made a lot of valiant choices in his second career -- he gave dangerous fighters a shot when he didn't have to.

He knocked out Foreman and left no doubt or controversy. Had Foreman made a strong push after and not gotten a rematch, this point would stand, but he didn't. He had a long layoff, did the circus act, life-and-death with Lyle, and the Jimmy Young loss.

The bout with Jimmy Young was so godawful ugly that I don't expect people would tune in a second time. It's still a spectator sport, and a business. He fought him once, that was plenty. From the perspective of Ali, I think Young is much more enticing than, say, Shavers. Better for your health and at a pace anyone could handle. It just wasn't good business I imagine.

 

Also, I'll go on record saying Foreman had very little chance in an immediate rematch. He always has a chance with those big paws of his, and an even better one had he stayed balanced and challenged within two years or so.

But, say, six months after? He'd be dealt with again. Ali wasn't near spent at the end of the match in Zaire. He could beat a paced, measured Foreman in a comfortable UD at the least. Most like he'd stop him again, though.

 

It's not a question of who we think would have won the rematch. Foreman was the undefeated champion when he lost to Ali and he asked for...demanded a return bout immediately after that fight in 74. He Should not have needed to fight anyone for that rematch. Ali beat Liston from one side of the ring to the other yet he got a rematch the very next year....Alis first title defense. Spinks clearly beat Ali yet Ali got an immediate rematch 6 months later. Johannson flattened Patterson....who got a rematch....yes Patterson. I can go on but you get the point. Foreman asked and demanded a rematch. Ali gave lots of lip service but the fight was never made....three years and no rematch.

Also there was lots of talk after that fight that put plenty of doubt in the minds of boxing fans. Loose ropes, ropeadope, Foreman so exhausted so quickly, talk of George being drugged, short count, was he counted out or did the ref stop the fight? I can again go on but the bottom line was many thought the bout and Als win was tainted. Now we can look back 40 years later and poo poo these points....as I can.....but at that time these points in the mind of many lay boxing fans were serious points to consider.

 

Seamus...your way out of your league now. I lived through that time. Your exposing yourself as someone who looks at past events through today's knowledge.

Once again....Dempsey had no control concerning a fight with Wills. Powers way above Dempseys level dictated Wills had no chance to fight for the championship. Why do you blame the man who actively wanted the fight? Wills stated years later he knew Dempsey wanted the fight and he had no ill will towards Jack. that should be the bottom line.

Foreman should have gotten a rematch. Based on the history I just outlined he should have gotten an immediate rematch. It does not matter that the gossip concerning the fight today can be determined as unsupported by the facts. AT THAT TIME it was perceived as question marks concerning the outcome of the fight and yes there were a great many f the boxing public that wanted the fight to happen. Ali did have a much higher level of control to make this fight occur than Dempsey fighting Wills but it did not occur. Ali clearly ducked the rematch. Yet you blame Dempsey for not fighting a man he had no control over fighting. Suggest you start applying your criteria with less obvious prejudice.

 

I think that at best Ali was waiting for these guys to force the issue, but the circumstances behind these fights not happening are complex.

 

The reason why the Dempsey Wills fight not occurring is complex because the reason transcends boxing. It had nothing to do with Dempsey yet Seamus vilifies the man because the bout never occurred.

The reason Ali did not fight Foreman a second time much less so because the reasons are clearly confined to the boxing world. Foreman wanted a rematch. The public would have paid to see it happen. The history of hwt boxing 50s through 1980 dictates that George should have gotten an immediate rematch. Yet Ali fought all of 75, 76 and 77 many times but no Foreman rematch. Ali could have easily fought George but he ignored the idea of the fight. Ali ducked a Foreman rematch.

Dempsey had no power to make the fight with Wills happen...he did try. Wills himself stated he knew Jack wanted the fight but the powers that be would not allow it to occur.

Why does Seamus vilify Dempsey but give Ali a complete pass?