Ali Ducking Foreman and Young?

The very special case of Frazier aside, I think for similar reasons, Ali also never did rubber matches. He was fine with getting either the first or the last laugh. He didn't need to get majority of the laughs. It all points to more of a philosophy than any specific instance of ducking anybody.

 

Well.............He also did a rubber for Ken Norton. Food for thought,though.

 

It's interesting when you look at Ali's second fights with Ken Norton and Joe Frazier. Muhammad won them both,albeit closely. Both gave him a far tougher fight than Foreman did,and they were granted rematches.

 

True. I suspect that if Foreman had beaten Ali the first time, that Ali would have fought Foreman a second, and possibly even a third time.

But he won the first time, and in emphatic fashion. During his second act, when Ali beat you the first time, no matter how close or controversial, he moved on.

Aside from die-hard Foreman fans who, to this day, cry conspiracy, Ali-Foreman was a prototypical example of a conclusive fight that does not require a rematch. Foreman was beaten to the punch from the outside, he was tied up and smothered on the inside, and never saw more than a second or two in his ideal range. I would accept an argument that Ali avoided a rematch with Shavers before I would accept an argument that he avoided a rematch with Foreman.

 

I don't think the word duck and Ali should ever be in the same sentence.

 

The funny thing is that if Ali did decide to rematch Foreman and won again, and did decide to rematch Young and won again, at the cost of, say, Lyle and Shavers, there would be a thread in this threads place accusing Ali of taking an unnecessary rematch against Foreman and shamelessly ducking Shavers.

I don't fault people for taking either stance, of course. There are more fights fans want their favourites to fight than fights their favourite fighters have in them. Even the most fearless fighters understand that and try to make the best choices possible. 99% of the boxing public are completely happy with everything Ali accomplished and who he accomplished it against. That's probably better than just about any other boxer in history.

 

Of course Ali avoided a rematch with Foreman. How can you possibly think he didn't.

Foreman and Ali talked on a frequent basis.
Foreman wrote that Ali initially told him he would give him a rematch but he wanted a few money fights first. I think that's understandable.

He later told Foreman that he would give him a rematch only if he let Dick Saddler train him for it. Foreman said no. Saddler was the trainer Foreman had fired after Zaire who he claimed had doped him.

 

I was reading your post with an open mind until I got to the last sentence. Well done, sir!

 

According to George Foreman's great biography "By George", there was definitely suspicion as to why Foreman was being made to wait so long. Instead of receiving a rematch, George was forced to go on a fighting trail longer and tougher than he thought ANY former champion should have to go through to get a rematch.

George believed that he would get a shot at the winner of Ali and Frazier's "Thrilla in Manilla" in October of 1975. When that didn't happen George teamed with promoter Jerry Perenchio to try to secure a fight in the spring of 76. That fell through.

A proposal was made that George could get a shot if he beat the highly dangerous Ron Lyle. George went on to triumph over Lyle in a brutal all out war. George HAD WON the war and was ready for his title rematch. George STILL however was not given a shot.

Then Perenchio came back to him and said that he would DEFINITELY get Ali if he beat Joe Frazier again. George thought that he was being forced to go through an exessive gauntlet just to get a rightful rematch. George AGAIN won. AGAIN by a knockout.

Now George WAS SURE that he would get his rematch. But NO SUCH LUCK. By this time even Sports Illustrated was growing impatient. Foreman's great performances combined with Ali's unpopular and HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL "win" over Ken Norton prompted Sports Illustrated to say of George Foreman "HE IS THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION"!. Jerry Perenchio abruptly then left Foreman, partially over the anguish of not being able to deliver Ali.

Don King then approached George and promished that HE could deliver a rematch with Ali. King however ALSO failed to deliver. But then King came back and said that he could deliver Ali IF George went on a 3 Fight international Don King promoted tour on ABC. What did George have to do to get his rightful rematch? George HOWEVER agreed.

He fought the first fight in the U.S. and won impressively. He fought the second fight in Pensacola and won that one impressively as well............. Finally, in Puerto Rico, he got upset in the eyes of the judges by the awkward Jimmy Young. George retired Immediately following the bout in what turned out to be a religious experience in his dressing room. He would not return to the sport he loved for more than a decade.

Did Ali duck Foreman's rematch attempts? We do know one thing for sure. 3 seperate promoters in 3 LONG years INCLUDING the great Don King Himself COULD NOT make the fight happen INSPITE of George's great performances and growing public demand.

Does this all add up to Ali not ducking a Foreman rematch?

 

After Foreman destroyed Lyle and Frazier, Ali kept making excuses. His continuing argument, which there wasn't even a basis for it, was "One more fight, and I'll fight him."

Don't also forget, when Foreman gatecrashed a press conference once, Ali said "Two more fights" when Foreman asked him when he was going to get a rematch. The date assigned for this fight was supposedly in November of 1976, then Ali out of the blue said he was retiring. Foreman then starts in negotiations to line up a few fights, and then all of a sudden Ali said he never was retiring and instead of fighting Foreman, he chose Alfredo Evangelista, in what was considered the worst heavyweight title fight of all time.

Foreman, in desperation, then fought Jimmy Young in a title eliminator, and lost. Not long after that Jimmy Young would 'lose' a controversial decision to Muhammad Ali who never took Young seriously, figuring him for another Evangelista. By 1977 the top contenders were guys like Mike Schutte, Bobick and of course Evangelista. Ali had no intentions of fighting anyone difficult unless he absoloutely had to.

How many former champions can you name who either got returns off the bat, or returns after defeating at least one top contender? I can throw many names from Dempsey to even Muhammad Ali himself getting returns either off the bat or within reason. Foreman defeated two of the top four contenders in 1976 in Frazier and Lyle, but was passed over.

To say Foreman didnt pay his dues, is bull****. Who the hell cares whether he could or couldnt win a rematch with Ali, thats not the point. The argument here is, what more could Foreman have done, considering what he did in 1976 alone? He was a former champion, defeated two of the top four contenders in '76, was voted FIGHTER OF THE YEAR, in the FIGHT OF THE YEAR, and the 5th round in Lyle-Foreman was also voted ROUND OF THE YEAR as well. After demolishing Frazier, most magazine titles were like this (International Boxing issue): "BIG GEORGE FOREMAN, THE MAIN MAN IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT PICTURE AGAIN."

And dont use the excuse Foreman didnt want a rematch either with Ali, or that he squandered his own chances, because virtually off the bat Foreman tried like hell, even appearing in SPORTS ILLUSTRATED in 1975 saying he wanted Ali again and was planning his comeback in a big way. Hell he even said on November 8th, 1974 to the St. Petersburg Times he wanted to fight Ali again. Ali just didnt want none of it. BTW, the WBC had ordered that Ali had to fight the #1 contender George Foreman, following the Norton fight (September 28th, 1976) within 90 days. This was stated in August 20th, 1976.

Also:

BOXING NEWS November 20th, 1976 (cover) "ALI AGREES TO FOREMAN REMATCH"

BOXING NEWS November 27th, 1976 (cover) "ALI RETIRES".

That dont tell you anything, then I dont know what will.

 

The champion should fight the top guy, and there was no one higher than George. Norton? Foreman had crushed him before and had beaten tougher fighters recently. Shavers? He'd been slaughtered by Lyle in 75. Young was pretty much unknown until '76 and the Ali fight. Holmes hadn't earned a ranking. Bobick beat no one of note. Lyle had lost to Foreman and twice to Young. Alfio Righetti? Need I go on?
Ali worshipers have no shame at all in defending their King...they believe he never lost a fight, made a mistake, or DUCKED someone. But he did, all of the above. And he got away with it and continued to milk his flimsy title reign for all it was worth.

 

Just so I am not misunderstood I rate Ali as the best hwt champion....ever. Not fighting Foreman a second time does not in any way taint his career in my eyes. It's just the historical truth that he avoided a rematch with George.

 

That is what Foreman claims.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/enter/books/leb15.htm

 

"Ducking", to me, implies that the fighter doing the ducking is somehow fearful of his opponent. Not every fighter who chooses other fights is ducking the fighters he's choosing not to fight. Wlad is unlikely to fight Haye again, and Haye has been pushing for a rematch for the past couple of years. Wlad isn't ducking him - he just ain't interested anymore.

Everything you wrote about various people trying to secure a rematch is probably true. I bet Young, Shavers, and everybody else in the division were angling hard for fights or rematches too. I reckon if asked, they would all say they were promised rematches if they fought x, y, and z. But it doesn't mean Ali was ducking Foreman. He simply wasn't interested. Been there, done that. And not being interested isn't remotely the same thing as ducking.

Remember, by that point Ali was already talking retirement. In fact, he initially retired immediately after the Foreman fight at the press conference. This was clearly a man who knew the clock was ticking on his career and earned the right to only pick the fights that intrigued him the most or miscellaneous stay busy fights.