Ali fraud...

What?

 

atsch

 

Good post with valid points and I add a few more :
(1) The ring in the rumble in the jungle
(2) Liston taking a dive in their second fight .

But threads like this make you see the blind bias in favor of Ali :
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211663
just see the poll's results.

I believe Spinks would have given Ali fits , just like he gave Holmes , and Norton , Frazier and Spinks' lesser brother gave Ali , not to mention Doug Jones . P4P I tend to favor Spinks.

In Ali's defense it can be said he had an arm injury prior to his first Norton fight , but does it explain their third ?

 

Not even with the lighter gloves.
Which is a factor in his achievements in this department.

 

The ring in Zaire actually favoured Foreman,as Muhammad found it difficult to move like he normally did. Ali won that fight by using Foreman's own strengths against him ! Whether liston took a dive,or not,that is no fault of Muhammad Ali. He would have won that fight anyway. As for Michael Spinks giving Ali fits,it would depend when in his career we're talking about Muhammad fighting him. If you mean 1976 onwards,then you'd be right,imo. Anytime up to,and including 1975.Ali would deal with Michael handily. Don't forget that Larry Holmes was past it when he had his two goes with Michael. Ali was WELL passed it when he fought Michael's brother,and Doug Jones was a ggod testing bout for an up and coming fighter. Ali was all the better fighter afterwards for the experience. Ken Norton was a top fighter who would have given a lot of champions a tough battle,unless his opponent was a murderous puncher who could force Ken backwards.

 

He could have done good without it (didn't he ask Dundee to cut off his gloves ?) , he could have done good with tight ropes against Foreman ,
then why all the (mild) Hopkinsism ? why blemish his name and achievements if he could just win against them all without cheating ?

 

No it was not. The ropes absorbed a big part of Foreman's punches' energy.

Note it was the lesser Spinks.

And how do you explain Holmes' own showing against a "past it" china Norton ?
And then Ali's performances against Ken china Norton ?

Norton was a top fighter for his time , but don't exaggerate his all time ability. For Norton many would be considered murderous . Like that 188lbs dude Jose Luis Garcia :yep.
Now imagine Frank Bruno , Tommy Morrisson or Donovan Ruddock whom are not greats at all , do you consider them murderous punchers ?
And Herbie Hide , and all those guys I am not even interested at like Coetzee , and then many more.
Norton is far from (being) a great HW .

 

You did manage to convince me Ali was a greater fighter than Zivic and Hopkins . Congratulations.
Regarding the first post , you did nothing to disprove it.

 

I think it is at least arguable. In truth Shaver's best KO's were an ancient Norton and an extremely green Young. Baer has Carnera and Schmeling on his list.

 

Shavers KO of Ellis was probably his best.

Young was a nothing fight. Although I suppose in hindsight we can say he proved hard to stop, i dont know about it being an achievement at the time.

 

If you say that then you have to say the same thing about Sugar Ray Robinson when he came back. He lost much worse to Ralph Tiger Jones then Ali did to Frazier. In fact the bout with Frazier was fairly close and Frazier was a much better fighter then Jones.

Ali was a head on all scorecards - referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60 | judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62 | judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62. Most boxing people had Ali in front as well. I just wish both of them called it a career after that bout.

Good point But styles make fights and Norton had one of those styles. Robinson even had trouble with some, such as Henry Brimm. Also, after the 3rd Frazier bout, Ali went down a lot, BUT some of the best judges scored it for Ali anyway. referee: Arthur Mercante 8-6 | judge: Harold Lederman 8-7 | judge: Barney Smith 8-7.

All you have to do is either look at the films or silent to the broadcast and you will know that it was only seconds not minutes after the 1 minute rest period.

Most Championship Rings are 20 feet inside the ropes and that is what Ali boxed in most of the time.

Tyson would be very good for the 1st several rounds, But as time went on, he would slow down and Ali would take over. Ali had one of the best chins in boxing history. He took punches from Shavers, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, just to name a few.

 

Bruno,Morrison and Ruddock are indeed solid punchers,but not wrecking balls like Foreman,Liston or Shavers.

 

Baer stopped Schmeling and Carnera, better scalps than any Shavers had. Granted, Shavers is in the argument and perhaps he was a better puncher than finisher. I still say it is debatable.