Ali H2H

Well than i'll go with the clear mismatch of young Hearns vs old Ali....lol

This content is protected

 

This sort of topic and talk is commonplace year after year is all i reckon.

To answer both questions in one i favour no fighter ever over Ali.

How could you favour Foreman over him when past peak Ali beat peak Foreman? Gordon will have an aneurysm.

 

Did I slip into a time warp again and end up in a reality where this didn't happen?

[url]http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.11873941.1464980997!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_960/image.jpg[/url]

 

You aren't going to get much fanfare on that train of thought.

 

Ali beat the best competition, but he also had several weaknesses and enjoyed a size advantage in almost al of his fights.

Today he would be smaller, and when Ali was north of 220 pounds, he visibly slowed down some and become less active.

On the plus side Ali had great pride, and foot speed, a very good chin, ring smarts, and a solid right hand where the power in it stayed with him until the final bell. He could also clinch well, and cover up/ counter with some skills. You could also say he could play to the judges and the crowd, with acting ability to either engage or confuse the less than mentally strong fighters he fought.

After seeing almost all of his fights, Ali's weakness' are thus:

1 ) Good jabbers could get to him and did so in all phases of his career...Doug Jones, Kenny Norton, Jimmy Young, Ron Lyle, Bob Foster ( cut Ali with it ), and Larry Holmes.

So any good jabber, especially those with some length and pop on it give Ali trouble

2 ) Ali had brilliant defensive reflexes but an unorthodox style, prone to being either floored or hurt by good left hookers ( Banks, Cooper, Frazier ). So anyone with this punch could land on him.

3 ) Ali had a limited attack. He could not in-fight at all, did not have a hook that he used and when he did it was a slapping like the punch, and had no uppercut either. Essentially he was a jab and cross type of fighter, who did next to no body work. For such a great fighter his arsenal is shocking limited, but when you very fast and have a height and reach advantage, with quick feet, you can get away with it.

4 ) He wasn't always in shape.


In his prime, the way some define it in the 1960's Ali failed to beat a top 50 heavyweight aside from the quit job/dive that Liston offered.

The truth is Ali wasn't great until he lost to Frazier and Norton. Then he came back to beat Frazier, Norton, and Foreman and hung on to beat Lyle ( down on points until the stoppage ), and Young ( Majority felt he lost ). His third win over Norton was a robbery.

While the 1960's Ali was undeniably faster, the 1970's Ali was stronger, a better clincher, a better counter puncher, and I think even smarter. Therefore you can argue which version was the better fighter. The 1970's version beat better competition by far.

So who could realistically beat him?

1 ) Good jabbers. Anyone with world class skills. Norton did a number on Ali, Ali barely edged a cruiserweight sized Doug Jones 6-4. So could Bowe, Lewis, and either Klitschko fit. So does Larry Holmes

2 ) Good swarming attackers with a top left hook who would not tire such as Frazier, Marciano, Jeffries, or Tyson.

3 ) Large fighters where Ali's clinching behind the head tactics would not work.

4 ) Fighters with good staimia to go 12-15 rounds and out punch Ali on punch stats.

Personally I think Larry Holmes decsions Ali in a close call...any verison of him. Holmes who had a better jab and all around skills said Ali kicked him out of his camp in 1974 ( I think that was the year ) because Holmes was just too fast for him.

I like Lewis over Ali, and V Klitschko over Ali.

Frazier in his prime has the style match up over Ali. There is not enough flim on Jeffries to justify the pick, although he certianly could do it.

Marciano I think would fall short but likley do more damage than say Chuvalo did, who had Ali damaged after the fight.

 

I am not sure that I would favour anybody over him outright, but I see a few people as being 50/50 or 40/60 type propositions.

Jim Jeffries might have been able to been able to beat him in a finish fight, assuming that Jeffries was what I think he was (not a given).

Jack Johnson would probably have given him fits.

Jack Dempsey would have been a bad stylistic match for him.

Joe Louis could probably have beaten him with the right fight plan.

Rocky Marciano would have been a bad stylistic match for him.

Joe Frazier might well have been one of the worst people that he could have shared an era with.

Larry Holmes would have given him fits.

Lennox Lewis would have been a dangerous assignment for him.

There are also tricksters like Tunney and Walcott who might have had a shot at frustrating him.

 

I see no point in speculating between eras. Todays HWs are absolutely huge in comparison and some of them have excellent speed and technique for their size. Who knows how Ali would Ali fare against monsters like Joshua, not to mention the Klits and Lewis? I think he'd find them very, very difficult and I'm a huge fan of Ali. But in the end that's just speculation.

What we can say is that it is doubtful that any fighter ever enjoyed more success against such variety and quality of opposition over such a long time as Ali did. By this definition he might not just be the best HW H2H but the best fighter H2H period.

 

Why are we even mentioning Joshua in the same sentence as Lewis and the Klitschko's?

I have high hopes for him, but it is all still to play for.

Size is an important factor in boxing, but it is not the only important factor.

 

Well, only in terms of someone of immense size that also looks good in terms of speed and technique. But you're right, he's much, much more unproven. But for someone with less than 20 fights and who have yet to face a world class fight he seems hypothetically like he could be a big threat to Ali. Relative to his experience. And hypothetically. You get the drift.

 

I'd fancy a prime Ali over them all.
A past prime Ali knocked out Foreman irregardless of whether you think he handled the conditions better, the conditions were the same for both fighters.
The Klits and Joshua are in my opinion too statuesque to bother Ali style wise I think he's all wrong for them, too fast of hand and foot.
I'm less convinced he beats Bowe and Lewis, to me both are more rounded than the others and have more in the armoury, are looser fighters with less rigidity.
I think he'd beat both but it would be very close.