Refer to: Where does your information come from Unforgiven? My information comes from Muhammad Ali himself. The subject of this thread. What about you? Where did you get your info on how to judge Ali's character unforgiven? Did you ever meet Muhammad Ali? Did you ever have a 5 minute conversation with him? Your gonna sit here and tell me what true and not? Give me a break. Feed 22 million people in one lifetime, then criticize Ali. May I remind everyone Unforgiven - human being Muhammad Ali - human being The playing field is level Un, and right now Ali is making a joke out of you. You go out of your way to find fault in someone so bad, why dont you channel that energy to make something out of yourself that can be compared to Ali. Maybe then your criticism will hold an ounce of meaning to it. These so called "gems" that Duce is dropping, are half truths presented in an agenda driven anti-Ali bias. Anyone can see that "Without LSG group, you would have never heard of Ali". Wow im learning so much! Thank you LSG! I should get an LSG poster on my wall, not Ali.
"He was a braggart," - A black man acting they way Ali did was unheard of. There are cultural and racial stigmas behind his boisterous attitude. Blacks in america had to suppress certain emotions for white society. Thats why it was such a huge statement and a big deal, that Ali would act loud and proud. "refused to serve his country," - Dont serve me burger. Will not join you to kill brown people. Whats not to understand here? "and pay the consequences with grace" - out of a job for three years. Refused 80 million when the government offered it to him for compensation in the 90's. Very graceful. "tormented his decent opponents,whilst under the protection of the Muslim Mafia,etc." You dont know how those fighters treated him. And Ali was receiving threats before he had the noi. " But I suppose NOBODY's PERFECT..." By far the most correct thing stated in this post.
Mr. Rez, I completely respect your opinion, and your love for Muhammad Ali is obvously heart-felt. But don't confuse counter-opinions with an anti-Ali agenda. You're judgement of a young Cassius Clay and pre-1975 Muhammad Ali is based on what you want to read, not all that was written. I was their, in the trenches in the 1960's. Damn, Sonny Liston was doing more for the civil rights cause in 1962/1963/1964 than Cassius Clay ever did,,,,, and Sonny was doing it for the benefit of the people, without any media attention or 'fanfare'.
What was it that Sonny did for the civil rights cause, Duce ? I assure you that my query is neither sarcastic or rhetorical. I'm simply curious.
1962 thru 1964, He was involved in race relation problems in the south, primarily in New Orleans. Dealing with theatre owners who had a 'segregated only' venue.. As well as getting involved with helping several businessman open sports stores in areas, that were considered restricted or off limits, in New Orleans. Unfortunately, Sonny was going through his own personal problems in Philadelphia, and once he left Philadelphia and settled in Denver in early-1963, he worked with several Community Centers and sponsored several youth-related projects, in between fights. He was an officer for Television-Network-Theatre, Inc. and was their spokeperson for race relations in the South. In the summer of 1962, while up at The Pines Resort in South Fallsburg, NY, an area that did not have a 'so-called race relation problem', Sonny was the 'Toast of the Town'. Though Sonny wanted to get involved, he was told by the NAACP, that he wasn't the right type, and did not present a proper image for improving civil rights issues. In the summer of 1963, on his own, Sonny Liston started a campaign to support President John F. Kennedy's Civil Rights Program. Several demonstrations were held in downtown Denver, as Sonny Liston led 2-mile marches thru the Main Block Corridor. In August 1963, Sonny Liston went on a boxing exhibition in Europe and Denmark, but cut it short, to attend civil rights causes in Birmingham, Alabama. At the time, negotiations were in the works with Ingemar Johansson, in staging a possible fight, which would have been the 'largest live gate' in the history of boxing. Sonny ended those discussions, and took the 'morale high road', instead of taking the fight. In 1963, when no one, and I mean no one wanted the Great Joe Louis around, it was Sonny Liston who helped him out. Keeping him on as an assistant, and help setting him up in Las Vegas. Joe was battling his own demons then, but Sonny made sure Joe was still taken care of, and gave him $500 a week, just for 'walk-around-money'.
I'm doing alright, thanks. I'm not trying bad to find fault with Ali at all. I've been a fan of his for most of my life. I think maybe you should start giving yourself some advice. If anyone has an unhealthy obssession around here, it is you. I certainly don't waste much energy at all thinking about these things, and I certainly don't feel any real emotion for, or against, what is said on this thread by anyone. You, however, seem completely in the grip of a pathological hero-worship. And I feel I might bring unfair criticizing you for that, since it is tantamount to attacking your religion. I don't hate, nor hero-worship, anyone, or hold any strong emotions on these people we discuss here. It's just historical discussion to me.
Now, that's the kind of info I'm talking about. I'm also for hearing reznick's first-hand stories that Muhammad Ali told him, but they are so far somewhat thin on details.
Rez, you are in the throes of Ali idolatry,that reason will not prevail. 1- because he was a "black man",does not mitigate the fact he was a braggart,and you excuse him because of racial stigmas of the past.Ill manners is ill manners,regardless of your ethnic group.Just an excuse,to blame others because your race was discriminated in the past... Would you excuse a white man who was mugged by a black man if he blamed the black race for his mugging ? No I believe.. You excuse him for refusing to serve in the armed forces as I and millions of others have, because " I won't join to kill brown people", and don't recognize the hypocracy in that remark.!In other words if the Viet Nam people were English, Norwegan ,French, that would be fine with Ali ? In a Democracy we vote in our leaders and must follow the laws of the country,and not pick the darn laws you want to obey only..What country would long exist in this fashion ? Anarchy would take over,and the country would go Kaput... You claim Ali lost 3 years money, and bouts for his actions...Well it is a heck of a lot better than being shot or spending years in the brig for his actions as others did....The fact is other black fighters as good as Ali,such as my favorite,Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles,Joe Walcott, had great dignity and class in their great careers without demeaning other fighters who were just trying to make a living. Shouting insults to other fighters cruelly, just wasn't correct i believe...A great boxer and brave in the roped square,was Ali, but also a man full of himself...
Yes, burt, and most of those fighters who threw demeaning insults at were black fighters. It's ironic that reznick would say it's Ali "acting loud and proud" as a positive thing for blacks, when he called his fellow black fighters "Gorillas" and "Ugly" .... yeah, some really positive racial affirmation there ! atsch
I thought it was kind of funny when Muhammad Ali started to tell Floyd Patterson where he should live. After making it financially, Floyd was told by Ali that he should move back to the poor sections of New York, and forget about living next to 'whitey'. Never could figure that one out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I was never old enough to have real conversation with Ali. I'm 21, and well, you saw him in the 96 olympics. His illness got to a point around that time where he was not able to leave his house as much. However since 1981, my dad has been very close friends with him, and the stories I hear come from him, and my other family members who knew him. He wasn't friends with him the way Ali was friends with thousands of people. They were actually real close. Ali, although I was too young to remember, had dinner at our house plenty of time. My dad had a key to his house and vice versa. I'm telling you this because there were a lot of leeches in Ali's life who claim to be his "friend". Some of those leeches wrote books about him, some, whom maybe the source of information that Duce is giving us. And my dad was someone totally different. He never treated him like he was something special. He just treated him like another person. And that why Ali loved our family so much, because he was treated like a regular guy in our house. When my grandma whom I never got a chance to meet, saw Ali in my dads house for the first time, she gave him a look. Unimpressed, she turned back to cooking food, and said to my dad in our ethnic language "Tell him I have at least 4 nephews who can beat him up". My dad and my family are realistic and would never fabricate reality to be able to tell a nice tale. It's not how they are, and I guess you will just have to take my word for that just as you take Duce' word on the information hes giving us without sources (not that I dont trust the info). I don't have an obsession. I just have knowledge of Ali's true character. And considering he is a family friend, the least I can do is clear his name using what I know. I have been stating facts just as Duce has. His information most likely comes from a writer who Ali let hang around him for a year or two. While my information comes from Ali behind closed doors. He is a better person than some of you make him out to be. Sorry I cannot dislike him for things he did as a kid. I certainly would give you all the respect to judge you by your current personality, rather than what I heard about you when you were 22 years old. Oh and thanks for the consideration Unforgiven, I mean it. But I am not Muslim, and I'm not black. Just a hardcore boxing fan who happens to be lucky enough to have someone in the family that has first hand info one of the legends. My only agenda here is to debunk or defend some criticism being made about him here. But I would never put that ahead of the truth. If you want specific first hand stories about Ali in the Civil Rights movement, I cant do that. But if you would just like to hear stories in general, good deeds or run ins with other boxing legends, that I can do. But as it pertains to the CR movement, I believe in my heart that Ali's courage to make his voice heard, no matter if you liked it or not, in such turbulent times, was incredible. And it helped other black people with dealing with an oppressive society by opening their eyes to the possibility that you can be loud and proud.
I never said hes was not a braggart. You think he would deny that? He always had a tongue in cheek manner to it, unless he truly had a problem with the other fighter. You think Ali truly believes he's the greatest man alive, a God, or something supernatural? I cannot count how many times I have seen him in an interview explaining his act. He shamelessly credits Gorgeous George for much of his braggadocio boxing persona, and never fails to remind us there is only one true God. He might have said he is God to Frazier in their final round during the fight of the century, but to think of it something deeper than psychological warfare is just silly. If he were God, why would he be getting hit all over the place? Its your guys choice to overlook his contstant reminder that he is basically acting. And never has anyone made it so obvious. He basically smiles through his teeth when he supposed to be mad. (except like I said, unless he really disliked the guy). Burt I just want to say that no matter what my views are on any political issue, I respect every single person who has ever fought for our country. I think you guys are the true heroes in life. Ali is allowed to be who he is, and I'm able to appreciate his life through the confinements of my safe home, because of you, and people who have done what you done. The appreciation and sacrifice you have given to the country goes beyond fighters and politicians and heroes, for you guys allow this world as we know it, to exist. I do feel a man IS entitled special rights to choose not to fight for a country that treats him worse than about 80% of the country simply for being born with a certain skin color. What did those 20% people do to deserve that? Are the rest of us from some sort of spiritual royalty afterlife background? I dont suppose so. Patriotism is important. But does it prioritize itself ahead of humanity? If we were all born in Nazi Germany, as Germans, we would have to murder Jews by the number, in order to not fall under the same criticisms you guys give Ali as it pertains to him dodging the draft. At what point, does humanity come before patriotism? No Burt, if the enemy were French or German, it may not make it okay for Ali, but it sure makes the situation a lot less crazy to consider being a part of. If I lived in a country that treated me sub-human, but wanted me to fight for them, I would tell them to **** themselves. I would rather be shot dead by that same government, than die for them. Dont treat me like a dog, and expect me to settle your political differences, as if they mean anything to me. By the way, you do realize that by Ali shouting insults at his opponents made those very same opponents more rich, right? Nobody made boxing as popular as Ali did, and no way Frazier, Williams, Terrell, or any other "victim" you can think of would have made a better income from boxing without Ali in the game.
MR. REZ,,,,,,,,,,very well stated,,,,,,,,,,, But Muhammad Ali circled the wagons a few times, before coming up with a reason to avoid in participating in the U.S. Military. If he just came out with statement to begin with, people would have looked at him in a different light. As for boxers making more money, there is more to life than boxing. It was Muhammad Ali who said "if they take my title away from me, boxing will die, I am boxing',,,,,,,, A quote very close to General George S. Patton, who once said, 'I need the war to go on, because I need more General Stars' In the end, he was consumed, by his own self.
