I'll tell you guys a story about Ali and Mike Tyson that's pretty funny. My dad, Herbert Muhammad, and Muhammad Ali went to the Ritz Carlton in Chicago to meet with Tyson over brunch. I think this is the first time that Ali would have spent time with Tyson that didnt involve TV, cameras, or journalism. Just a friendly brunch to get to know one another. Tyson was real young at the time. I think he had just become champ, so it was during his turbulent days. Anyways the three of them arrive at the Ritz, and Tyson is there. They greet each other, and then Tyson asks the host if they can be seated now that they have all arrived. The host who was actually the manager said "Im sorry, we will open in 10 minutes. Please give us a little more time to set everything up." Boom. Right there Tyson flipped. He grabbed the guy by the collar in an instant, and started yelling in the poor mans face, saying "What the ****, its because im black right? RIGHT?!" He was going on this wild rant, and Ali taps my dad and says "Lets got outa here, I dont have time for this." And they left all while Tyson is still yelling at this guy. I feel kinda bad for Tyson now, knowing he had this crazy fire in him all his life, that he just now learning how to deal with and suppress it seems like. But man, what a first impression that must have been! lol
There are many factors that I am positive that you have not considered as to why his public statements might have changed throughout the course of that process. Which if you have that information handy, I would be curious if you could share it, with the source. Such as legal implications towards public statements. Another factor is that it was just that, public statements. Maybe he knew it was wrong but was trying to find the right words, who knows. Either way he would have been boxing exhibitions the way Louis did for the army, so you cant say it was fear. What other motive could he have had? Life would have been easier for him if he had went. What do you suppose it is? He didnt like the weather there? Or is it just possible that he was genuine in his religious reasons for not wanting to go, and his problem with fighting for a government which treats people of his color as sub-human. Duce, if Ali is full of himself, then your expectations for the human race may just be a bit high.
Rez you seem to be a nice fellow. I sense that. But for Ali to tar all of America during the 1960s,as racist,when great strides were being made by then,and to refuse to serve your country while other black, yellow and white citizens fulfilled there obligations,sacrificing greatly,smacks of "let the other suckers' protect my ass attitude. Yes, Ali had the right to refuse to serve his country...But he was not an"oppressed victim". And he was not a hero...The country was making great strides for equality, and to have lost to Communism,or Stalinism, would have been a worse evil than obeying your countries call to duty...cheers...
Yeah Ali should have gotten all up in the 'nam, just like the congressmen's children that go to war.... o wait, they don't have to, they are exempt from the draft. Now that's hypocritical. Let the folks that vote in favor of war have their kids on the front lines and I doubt you will see nearly as many quite so eager to stir up the ****. And didn't the blacks in nam, a minority in usa die in almost equal numbers to their white counterparts? I think the whiteman used them as cannon fodder, just like the old days. Get in there Ali! There's a good reason they recruit at wallmart parking lots and not Maceys. It's a kick to get the poor to fight and die to ensure the wealthy maintain their way of life. That being said, i find it beguiling that perhaps Ali was influenced heavily by the nation of islam and was just a pawn in a much bigger matter.
Where getting way out of control here,,,,,,,,,, This thread is going political Simply stated, Muhammad Ali just didn't want to go into the U.S. Military, thats all. Nobody was sending him over to Vietnam, and whether he was for the 'Vietnam conflict' or not, nothing would have been wrong for a little U.S.O. tour. Those tours were not political, they just supported and entertained the U.S. Troops, but did not have a 'if were here, we are for the war banner'. I mean really, did anybody in the U.S. Government want to see Muhuammad Ali with an M-16, humping it through rice paddies in the Mekong River Delta. I think not.
:good I agree with all of that, and understand where you are coming from. Our differences seem to lie in what we are interested in. I'm far less interested in the Ali that your family's known in the 80s and 90s, and more interested in Ali as he was in his heyday, and the reasons he became so famous and controversial, as seen at the time. Not because I want to find faults with him as a youth, but because I'm keen on accurate boxing history. You make a good case for him, but it's needs to be balanced with the whole portrait of him and his actions, at the time. You're right in what you say - his talk almost certainly did embolden and inspire people, whether they agreed with him or not. But at the same time, I believe there were plenty of people, black and white, who found him tiresome and too self-important or didn't take him seriously at all. All sides have an equal right to view his public persona in whichever way they do, and the facts and statements he made back up the claim that he was a bit of all those things. I do believe, in the years since his retirement, the popular image of him as it was in the 60s and 70s, has been somewhat distorted, embellished and 'white-washed' (to use an unfortunate ecpression). The last thing in the world I want to do is criticize the Ali of today, or recent years, for things he said or did as a youth. But since those are the years that most interest me (ie. the years of his pro boxing career), and since those are the years in which he formed a cult following, I think it's fair to assess him in a balanced manner, warts and all.
Maybe so, but Ali was a rich kid with a garage full of Cadillacs when they Draft board came knocking for him.
Damn, Un, well put man. I think people have a tendency to assume that everyone else in life sees things similar to them. But your right, I have to be more sympathetic to the point of view you and others see him from. I really never thought we would reach some sort of understanding like this
Exactly. But I do think that by him going over it would be an act of support to the war. Would they send someone to entertain troops if he publicly was against the war? What troops would want to see him? It would be kind of a slap in the face to disagree with a war, and yet to go entertain those troops, dont you think?
Rez, so you think that Ali who was not meeting the intelligent tests, so it was claimed, would have a better understanding of the ramifications, to intercede in Viet Nam because he "aint got nothing against the brown people",more valid than what the U.S. government deemed necessary./ What if all my contempoaries in World War 2, refused to go in the service ,because they did not feel like it ? What language might you be speaking now...They did not call the U.S. troops the "greatest generation" for no reason...We were drafted, left our jobs and families, for a cause that the government deemed necessary, and hundreds of thousands of GIs never came home. You and Ali, don't like a law ? Change it at the ballot box... Now back to boxing Rez....
Burt,,,,,,,,,,,,I know you're definitely 'old school':good REZ,,If you went on a U.S.O Tour,,you did not have to announce your stand on the 'Vietnam conflict'. Those tours were not of a 'political theme', as nobody asked you what your opinion was. It was more of a modified R & R trip. I never saw Ann-Margaret or Joey Heatherton wearing helmets or American flags,,,,,tight mini-skirts,,,,YES:roll:
