Ali-Liston I, II - fixed?

What do people think the second fight was fixed? How so? Liston got hit and went down. To me, it's obvious that he was stunned but could've gotten up. But him rolling around the floor was a way for him to beg to get the fight over. He just didn't want more. That this guy was crazy, and just stopped. How was it fixed? Did Liston get threatened by the NIA? Mob? Who knows... people couldn't accept the first result but were people worried enough to have to have it fixed? Maybe some corruption, but Liston just gave in. The Nate Fleisher issue was just him interjecting with an inexperienced ref. Walcott just got manipulated and didn't have the knowledge that he was the authority. At least or thought that Nate had a good point.

The second fight was weird. But where was the fix? Is fix the right word?

 

:happy

Especially the end part. I don't understand how some of our best posters rate Liston anywhere from 3-6. Above some of the greats like Frazier and Marciano. Just feels wrong...

 

Liston was indeed a 9-5 favorite at Lewiston. He lost in a way that would be about as likely then as Manny Pacquiao getting blown out in one minute by Floyd Mayweather in March. NO ONE would have conceived of Liston losing by a first round knockout even after Miami. Look at it from the eyes of Carbo and co. Liston was getting older and slower. He showed that he had a dog in him. He was a friggin alcoholic -at least, by then.

So they cashed him out. It's the smart thing to do. They told him to fall down ...in round one no less, and then placed big money bets on Ali.

That is anything but inconceivable.

 

the punches you don't see sometimes are the ones that knock u down even tho they look a lot weaker than other shots fighters can take. surprise, quick shock factor. liston was unbalanced over-reaching coming in when the punch landed and he went down. after that god knows what happened but he went down cuz of ali's punch. walcott shoulda let the fight continue cuz he wouldn't start the count until ali went to a neutral corner and this didn't happen. both liston and ali were fighting again after this so the fight shoulda continued but it was stopped.

 

Ali was just too fast for Liston. He knew that so he looked for a way out in both fights. The only one that was possibly fixed was the second one but as stated above the punch you don't see usually drops you.

 

Nobody, nobody has accounted for Ali saying this. Everyone believes he says "Get up you bum." Watch the video of the punch. Liston head definitely snaps back. There's no way that Liston didn't get hit and I believe he did. Was he hurt? A little... did he get shook up that bad to be Koed? Hell no. Liston after the fight looks like a man that knows he has shamed himself. He looks like a man of guilt, a man with regret. Liston went down, but then rolled around. Maybe Liston could've took the punch without going down if his head was more focused... who knows. However, the punch did connect. That is for sure.

 

This is what I believe.

 

He didn't see it and Liston was coming in a little careless with his head down and got caught. He went down. Maybe from embarrassment and complete discouragement he rolled around and quit. He had quit in him so why not. Do I smell fix? Is overtly a fix? No... not to me at least.

Your story is getting a little inconsistent now Stonehands.

I like your story, it's really interesting. Especially the "Just go down in 1 round and we'll collect." Don't you think there would be some way to see or know about the bets made by his team or the people around him? Okay, maybe not. But there is a little thing we need called evidence before something becomes beyond a reasonable. If this were done in a court room there is no way this could be found guilty (On behalf of throwing the fight). It's basically a conspiracy theory at this point. Fishy stuff, no doubt but that doesn't change alleged from alleged and speculation from speculation.

The first fight was so harshly reacted upon that they had an investigation. People think the shoulder injury was non-legit. But this is bull****. It was legit. Liston did injure his shoulder which can be seen from a Cat-Scan in the FBI report. That's how serious this got. To that level. So when Liston II happened... obviously it was forgone and they wanted nothing to due with Liston. It could be easier to accept, but there was no motivate to investigate that fight. I suppose.

 

I didn't make up the statement. Whether or not it is verbatim is besides the point. It is pretty clear to me that Ali was angry because it looked like Liston was taking a dive and he didn't want to be tainted.

I've seen the video of the punch and discussed it above. No one is arguing that Liston wasn't hit. Was the shot enough to drop him -considering that Ali was out of position, that the punch was an arm punch, that Ali was not a power-puncher? I'd say no.

I recognize that reasonable minds may see things differently, but the fight was clearly, clearly suspicious. Liston's behavior... not Ali's.

 

A "fix" isn't necessarily a "dive."

Not in the least.

Did you know that the rematch was originally scheduled for November, '64? Liston was in optimum fight -in November 1964. Read the post again because I think you misunderstood it.

I would never assert my suspicions as factual. Neither should you.

 

If Liston threw the second fight, why did he do it in the first round? Surely, that would suspicion. If I was going to take a dive, I'd at least go a few rounds first to make it look convincing. Maybe Liston was genuinely put down by that right, and just decided that that was a good opportunity to lay down and call it quits. But if that shot was powerful enough to floor him, why is it treated with such contempt: "That was a nothing punch, it couldn't have legitimately stopped Liston!" If Liston was hurt enough to go down by a seemingly nothing shot off the back foot, it's not too big a leap to think that he might have been counted out.

Also, bear in mind that Liston did beat the ref's count. If he was quitting, why would he get up like that rather than lay down?

What about Ali on Cleveland Williams? That first right hand was little more than a flick of the hand, and it had Williams on the floor for real. Stranger things have happened in boxing.

Maybe Liston was throwing it, but in such a blatant way as to make it clear that he "was" throwing it. Like when you let somebody win with such a ****-poor acting job that everybody realises you're just toying. Maybe he couldn't bear to actually have people think Ali had genuinely beaten him, and wanted to make it look like a blatant fix.

It's a complicated affair.

 

That's completely different then calling him "Yellow" and saying "I didn't hit you." Of course he was worried it would look like a dive. Liston dived on himself, that taints either way. Doesn't imply a fix.

To be KOed is one thing. Dropped is another. Ali got some hip leverage, too.

I can agree absolutely with this. I don't see how Liston couldn't have very easily quit on himself. Maybe someone cashed in on it, but the truth is he DID get up. That's a point not often discussed. He was down, discouraged and embarrassed and rolled around but finally DID get up. The whole Nat Fliesher interjection stopped the fight.

Ah, my bad. Apologize for that.

No, but you said it was beyond a reasonable doubt that Liston took a dive. I just don't agree with this. Unless "dive" is quitting on yourself. Which I don't think you meant. I think there is too much speculation rather than concrete evidence for it to be beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all...

 

I agree.

But - when one looks closely on Liston going down it looks quite legit. When he pitches forward, he puts his hands on the canvas much in the way one does when instinctevely trying to regain one's balance.

Once he's on the canvas it looks a lot less authentic, though.

 

Ali was reponding with anger to Liston's tank job. Yelling that he is yellow, that he wasn't hit, is all the same to me as "Hey, don't you take a dive!"

Again, I never asserted that it was a fix.

The shot was a nothing shot. We can go around all day and I will remain unconvinced that the knockdown was legit.

He got up when it would have been absolutely ridiculous to continue the charade. The guy ran out of material. Liston was clearly stalling on the floor to get counted out.

That was a poetic response to prime's assertion that "beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed. Hey, if I were on the jury and was presented with all the circumstances, the poor performance by Liston on the canvas, etc., I'd probably vote "dive."

A man who takes a "dive" isn't always quitting on himself. A dive is done for self-serving reasons (ex. to get a title shot next time) or out of fear of the guys who drive black sedans and chew on toothpicks. Seldon is an example of a fighter who may have quit on himself against Tyson.