Ali-Liston I, II - fixed?

Well said.

 

Fair enough. It's one of those things in boxing we may never really know for sure I guess.

 

I sum up Lewiston as: legit knockdown; quit job by Sonny.

Poor Dundee! But you are wrong. He made a career out of training the greatest heavyweight of all time, from second fight to finish.

And poor Ali! But he himself already addressed your doubts at the press conference where he calmly explains the physics of Sonny's demolition: two clashing forces = knockdown capability. Ali made a career out of it.

As you very well know, Ali was not an in-your-face madman, wide-stanced, banging away with both hands at close range. He would get you from the outside, from where he could tag you but you couldn't reach him. And here he did it effectively and artistically.

 

This stance has always baffled me. I think MY position is bad enough in terms of conspiracy. But worse still is the idea that Liston was "legitimately knocked down" by a nothing punch and then decided, "ah, well, I can't beat this kid, so I'll pretend I can't get up. Maybe this audition will get me on Dick Van Dyke."

I'm not so sure that those who hold this position know how this stuff worked when the wiseguys were in the shadows. I can tell you this much -it didn't work like you propose.

My position is that Liston took a dive in the first round because he was told to. And you don't say "no" to those guys.

So, what is your position....? That Liston was being honest? That he went down from a good, clipping shot and that "Ali is crazy and I'm afraid to get up with him standing over me"...? It just doesn't work.

Dundee spread the myth that Liston was an ex-con and the only fellas that cons in the clink fear are the nut-jobs. And almost everyone still holds this nonsense up as if it's part of the historic record.

You forget his very similar script during the Leonard-Duran bouts. And even Classic posters are still propagating those myths too.

Ali was very astute about legacy. I have to keep from giggling like a little girl when I see him on film carrying on about that "Anchor Punch." He would have history believe that he laid a trap for that bear and intended to knock him down. Talk about magic. The thing is, though, history believed him. Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all times, in my estimation, but he was honestly full of it.

He did nothing there but provide an opening for Liston to show the world that he's no Laurence Olivier.

Ali's unorthodox offense that does nothing to prove, confirm, or strengthen the prima facie tank job that Liston pulled after a nothing shot.

 

Absolutely. However, there are things that we know, and then there are things that we know.

Of course, "know" remains speculation, objectively speaking.

 

:good

 

I don't believe either fight was fixed,I mean come on liston tried to cheat to win by K.O. in the 1st fight if you watch the round you can see liston actually caught ali with a left hook that stunned him,ali said himself later he thinks liston didn't notice he was hurt.In the second fight he clearly caught liston with a right hand that snaped his head but liston was definitely not seriously hurt he just didn't want to get up and take the same beating he took in the 1st fight and as walcott walks away and liston gets up he is cowering down while ali hits him as if he was scared,so IMO I do not believe either was fixed at all.​

 

Now you're just confusing me.

 

Number two will always be a fix in my eyes. Liston flopping around on the deck like a fish was just embarassing, you could see the ref was like, 'What the **** is he doing?' Liston was a tough guy, no way was he getting brutally KO'd like that, no offense to Ali, he did what he had to do but I think Liston threw it for sure, for what reason, one can only spectulate.

 

well liston was at the Clay-Jones fight only one year before they fought so i don't think Liston was in anyway scared of ali after watching that fight. i actually watched all 10 rounds last nite and scored it 6-3-1 but 6-4 is a possible score. Clay seemed to slug it out a lot in this fight and not as much movement and yes it was a close fight. i gave him the last 2 rounds. but he relied on that movement v liston.

Talking about the Liston KO. Seems not many here have heard the saying of the punches that you don't see knock you down. I'm not going over that point again - it's in the thread. there's no proof of any big betting pay-outs for this fight so why the fix? liston gave up is more likely. the mob would've been desparate for liston to re-claim the crown - that's where the money is.

 

The second fight, DEFINITELY fixed.
The first fight, maybe fixed, but probably not.

 

My thought on this whole thing is, if the second fight was fixed, why wouldn't they try to make it more realistic? Why such a strange scenario that causes people to raise their eyebrows?

That just doesn't add up to me.

 

i don't know how anyone can think the first fight was fixed unless they were trying to blind Clay to make him win lol and let the black muslims take control of the world title. Folley & Machen had also claimed about having burning eyes in their fights v liston. all this talk is just trying to downplay ali's achievement. liston couldn't handle his speed & movement. he kept hitting thin air - no wonder his shoulder got injured. keep throwing big shots and hitting thin air is not good for you. yeah agree above - that must be the worst fix fight of all-time (u usually try and hide it) - KO1 by ali who was not known as a big puncher. i think the Knockdown punch was legit - what liston did after is open to speculation.