Ali/Norton 3: Horrendous Robbery ?

Great post.

 

And Lyle was stopped by Ali.

Ali never even had Norton off his feet in how many dozens of rounds?

This is all very circular.

 

Fair call, but we'd be assuming Frazier might fall to Cooney and Shavers where as we full well know with Norton. Your other post sums up the total situation beautifully tho.

 

Norton avenged that loss.

 

I think it's one of my better ones.

 

Fair call too. I forgive Lewis and many others for similar things. Your defense of Norton is a good one in this thread. Nice to see him getting decent well thought out recognition. Keep up the good work in future threads Russ.

 

Don't sell yourself short, but it's a hard one to top.

 

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

He fought and lost to one huge puncher, that was Foreman, the same guy who took Norton out. Difference is, Norton also lost to other big punchers like Shavers, Cooney, and even early in his career against a nobody(which he later avenged). You can't compare the two when not only does Frazier have a better resume overall, but was more consistent and aside from the losses to Foreman, proved his chin on multiple occasions, something Norton didn't do aside from the Holmes bout.

Shavers rarely beat a top notch fighter, he simply was too un-skilled and lacked the cardio. In fact, the only one I can remember him beating is...........why Ken Norton. Hmmmm.

 

Frazier lost in devastating fashion to Foreman twice.

Just like Frazier, Norton climbed off the canvas multiple times. Three times before Foreman stopped him in the second round. The EXACT same round Frazier was stopped in.

Do I really need to spoon feed this to anyone?

And secondly...

You need to educate yourself on Shaver's record if you don't think he never beat any "top notch" fighters.

It took him a grand total of 5 rounds (Combined) to beat Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young and Joe Bugner, the Bugner thrashing when Shaver's was 37 years old.

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.

Once again, Norton's chin was not by and far worse than Frazier's. Just because Norton chose to take dangerous matches when his chin was known to be vulnerable isn't a mark against him, any more than Frazier avoiding certain powerful punchers is on against him.

 

Very good point. But Futch said Norton freezed up against punchers. That he'd noticed it even before Norton's fight against Foreman. And for me Futch's words carry some weight in this case, I must say.

Too bad that, beacuse I really like Norton. The version of Ali that Norton pushed to the limit in their rematch in 1973 wasn't at all far from what he had been at his absolute peak IMO, and that really says something. Beautiful fight. In terms of skill and technique from both fighters it offers up more than any of the Ali-Frazier fights IMO.

 

I don't think anyone is calling Norton great. I've never been too positive about him really, but i think he deserves his dues for beating Ali that third time and being called the heavyweight champion of the world. I cannot imagine the agony to be robbed of that just because the guy in front of you had better wit.

 

No one is disputing that he froze up.

Of course he did.

My sole point is that he didn't do any worse against some of the very hardest hitting heavyweights of all time than established ATG's like Frazier.

 

Norton's unfairly judged for getting KO'd by Foreman, Shavers and Cooney, IMO.

He was a total shell, around 38 years old, when he fought Cooney, so it's not fair to say that's a relevant result. Remember Duane Bobick had similar hype to Cooney, and was considered a devastating KO fighter, and many thought he too might flatten Norton, but Norton punched him out first round. Bobick had a rep as a puncher, and aggressive, but that didn't automatically win him a fight with Norton.

Against Shavers, it's a crapshoot if you're a Norton-style fighter. I dont believe Shavers beats Norton "10 out of 10" or "5 out of 5" or whatever. Norton was probably almost as capable of ambushing Shavers in the first round as Shavers was of doing what he actually did. You dont have to be chinny, or have a psychological problem with punchers, to end up on the wrong end of a 1st round KO when you're going up against Shavers.

Foreman was Foreman. There aren't many men with the same combination of strength, power and durability as Foreman.

 

This is true. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that the same results would have occured against Frazier.

In addition: a past-it Norton is being heavily judged for these two fights, yet gets no credit (or very little) for 'beating' Ali in the third fight because Ali 'was past it.'

I see how this works now...