Ali or Duran: who was the best of the two p4p?

DURAN IS NOT MY FAVORITE FIGHTER, I ADMIRED HIM AS A TOUGH,SMART,MEAN, FIGHTER WHO COULD BOX AND PUNCH...HE DID NOT ALWAYS TRAIN THE BEST HE COULD BUT THEN AGAIN NEITHER DID ALI...DURAN WAS BETTER THAN ALI LB 4 LB AND SO WAS LEONARD

 

Duran # 5, Ali # 9

 

Not even close. Duran all the way --

Duran did remarkably well against great fighters significantly larger than himself. Ali never fought men significantly larger than himself, because there were none. Not the man's fault -- if we were just comparing Duran's lightweight reign to Ali's heavyweight reign, I would prefer Ali.

But Duran did fight above his weightclass (after dominating it for three-quarters of a decade) and did so well. In fact, he moved up 12 pounds and challenged the recognized P4P #1 and won the damn thing.

 

Duran easily Ali had great physicall assets but was lacking in basic learned skills and paid a price for it when his phhysical attributes dwindled Ali was not the mythical Superman that many see him as.

 

They both possessed remarkable physical assets, and between them own some of the greatest victories in boxing (Foreman, Leonard, Liston, Barkley).

However, in comparing them directly I think Ali has to edge it.

He was mentally tougher than Duran and proved it in the ring. Ali absorbed horrendous beatings from Frazier (I and III), Shavers and Holmes and never conceded.

Duran was wonderful, but he mentally lost the plot twice - the scrotal shot to Buchanan and the quit against Leonard.

It would have been so easy (and probably most sensible) for Ali to quit against Holmes. The fact he didn't take this path makes me hold him in the highest possible esteem as a 'fighter.'

 

I see all kinda of arguments here that mean nothing at all when determining who was a better fighter of the two.

So Ali took horrendous beatings. Nice.

Against Barkley, Duran should have taken a horrendous beatin, and he partially did, but he also found a way to win against all odds.

 

I took it as read that there was more to Ali's career than taking horrendous beatings.

Against Foreman, Ali should have taken a horrendous beating. Against everyone he fought after Frazier III he should have taken a horrendous beating. But he didn't.

Duran should not have hit buchanan in the balls. He did. Duran should not have quite against Leonard. he did. Duran should not have lost to Benitez and Laing etc...

 

Agreed. Ali (-and no other HW) is within 5 paces of Duran, regardless of the sainthood and mythology surrounding him.

Duran was handling Buchanan who would have been considered an elite LW but for that 21 year old. Duran viewed the shot as retaliatory -it was not an act of desperation and it was not indicative of a heart problem.

He quit against Leonard and lost against Benitez and Laing. His only two faults in a career that spanned 5 decades with twice as many fights as Ali were that he quit and was inconsistent. However, let's be fair: Duran was in the ring for 12 years, 68 times and was past prime and past weight when he began to lose that fire. The man was fighting at age 50 based on memory alone.

His later triumphs were near-miracles and two are absolutely UNPRECEDENTED.

 

Stoney,

I agree with most of your comments on Duran mate, and I really have no major argument with anyone having Duran as high as they want.

But, it's just that I rank Ali higher than a lot of folks here, and unlike you I am happy ranking HWs very highly. For me, the HW division is the Open Mens division, the most elite in the game. The HW champ is THE champ and so on. While the HWs tend not to show the finesse of the niche divisions I would argue they have the deepest talent pool to compete against - anyway, I digress...

In a specific comparison with Duran, Ali's mental strength sticks out to me. I think an argument can be made that Ali edges him based on the two mental in-ring 'aberrations,' both of which occured at the extremes of Duran's best years '72-80, and not in his 5th decade of boxing. '72-80 Duran could be considered equivalent to '63-71 Ali or so...

I agree that Duran was handling Buchanan in a stunning performance (both men) - I own the fight and it is a favorite of mine. However, Duran knew the rules of boxing and he could easily have got DQd at the end of that performance. For that reason, even if it was retaliatory, and even if it didn't show lack of heart, it DID show lack of composure. Agree?

I think 'lack of composure' should be factored into the debate. Ali always seemed to have supreme self-control in the ring, at least to my knowledge.

Duran's later triumphs ARE miraculous - you and I are in full agreement there, and they weigh heavily on my exceptionally high ranking of Duran (at least top5 all time).

 

I'd agree that the HW division is the flagship division and that the HW champ of the world is The Man. Hell, I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that it is the most formidable title a man can win.

But celebrity doesn't translate into formidability. I'd grant you that it is the Open Men's division (well put), but would counter that even if the pool of men 200+ is not as small as I would have you believe, the only ones going anywhere are the BIG boys among them and the relative talents. HWs tend to rely less on skill and more on power. They are relatively poorly conditioned. There are more smaller guys in the world. They're objectively better than giants in terms of skill and conditioning.

I can't imagine what 1990 Chavez would have done to HWs had he been 6'2 and 220. I think he would've stood on their skulls and looked 6'10.

But then, I'd grant you this: the power factor. The great equalizer. HWs have a monopoly on it.

As per the mental factor between Duran and Ali. Ali wanted to quit when Liston's liniment got in his eyes. Dundee wouldn't let him and said "Run!!" -so says Dundee anyway. I think that Ali momentarily panicked and then, with encouragement from Dundee, got down to business.
Duran honored his baser instincts. He was humiliated, panicked, and quit. And in so doing he disgraced the sport. I think it was a mental burb that he almost immediately regretted but there is no excuse for it. It did more damage to boxing than anything in my lifetime -at least until Tyson's cowardice reared it's head--it's teeth.

The Buchanan low blow doesn't bother me enough to diminish his standing. Duran was still a savage at 21 and hadn't been tempered by Brown. In fact nothing tempered him until he was out of his 20s. Then he softened up in every way. Your argument about "composure" is a good one though, even if I argue that Duran, taken for what he was, didn't so much lack composure as he lacked middle class values!

Remember, Duran's style was based on savagery. Arcel and Brown channeled this but didn't change it. I think it was Marv Albert who had the single best description of Duran's style that he said as Duran was walking down to the ring for Hagler -he described it as "backalley baroque".

Also, a man without mental strength isn't going to be a pro from age 16 to 50. He isn't going to challenge men who were twice the size of him when he was a decade past his prime. Ali, who had an undeniable lionheart, doesn't have that pedigree. He looked to all at ringside like he was bigger than Liston and was the same size as Foreman -his two greatest conquests. He dwarfed Frazier -his next best conquest. He was done by 37. At 37, Duran was far more experienced than Ali in terms of years and number of opponents, and managed to snag a 4th title. HWs fight long -LWs do not and really cannot given the conditions.

 

This mirrors my thoughts as well. Ali wasn't a small heavyweight and he often had a size advantage over his opponents, this allowed him to pull down their heads for example. Ali's great, don't get me wrong, but on a p4p list, Duran should be higher.