Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

On what facts do you rate Ali as overrated ? As i'm always stating,based on his resume,if Ali is overrated,then so is EVERY other champion in history. He warrants being rated,at the very worst,number 2 heavy of all time.

 

People say ali couldn't punch, which was not the case. He wasn't in the same class as a louis or marciano but he had good power. Anytime that you can knock a man down going backwards ( as he did against liston and williams) you have to be able to punch pretty well. That's not something that a feather-fisted fighter can do.

 

No such thing as a perfect Heavyweight,,,,,

Will there ever be one...???

Though we did see 'two' champions fight very well when they got older.
George Foreman and Larry Holmes.

Their accomplishments at an older age, should push them way up, to the
Top of the Ladder.

Cassius Clay and Floyd Patterson, early age success is quite a 'big deal'.

 

Larry is seems somewhat bitter when talking about Ali because he'll always be blamed for the fight that shouldn't have happened yet it was the only way for him to get out of Ali's shadow as his sparring partner. I think Larry's viewpoint is more reactionary because at that point in the Facing Ali documentary, the Ali vs Shavers fight was the subject and the discussion of power. Lyle and Holmes validated Shavers right hand power as the hardest punch in heavyweight boxing. Stronger than Foremans.

 

Shavers packed dynamite in that right hand. Ali may have slipped,considerably,from Manilla when he fought Earnie,but he still had that rock hard jaw.

 

I rank Ali in my top 5 HWs , but people dismiss everyone's chances against him : like Vitali , Byrd , Toney , George Foreman (under usual circumstances) , Orlin Norris (even) , Tyson , if Ken Norton and Doug Jones could , then why wouldn't they and even inferior fighters to them ?)
Note that I do rank Ali higher than most fighters I expect to at least cause him big problems if not beat him , people dismiss the fact that many actually did give him problems and they in fact were inferior to at least some of the above.

 

In Larry's mind he believes it, and he can back it up with facts.

None of the fighters in Muhammad Ali's first reign were considered
high-quality opponents.
Throw away the tainted Liston fights, and the 'grocery bag' is empty.

Larry did state, that Muhammad got a gift in 1967, but not having to face-off
against Thad Spencer, Leotis Martin or Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis or Oscar Bonavena
all fighters capable of pressing Ali, because they were young and not shop-worn

 

True enough.

You could also say Holmes himself did not fight the divisions best during his title reign. And and the wear and tear factor definately had shown up on Holmes by the time of those dreary Frank/Smith/Bey fights. Let alone the Williams and first Mike Spinks bout. Holmes has an earlier wear and tear factor himself if he fights Thomas/Page/Tubbs/Dokes/Weaver and Witherspoon rematches. Or an earlier wear and tear factor if he had fought some dangerous type opponents prior to the Norton fight. That road was hardly a land mine either.

 

What 'normal circumstances' are you referring to with George Foreman ? As far as fighters giving him problems go,then YES Mike Tyson is far higher up on an all time great list than Ken Norton,but in my opinion,Tyson would n't be as much a problem for Ali as Norton was. Stylistic thing. Boxing may be basic,but it certainly is n't simple.

 

Larry was a good heavyweight, maybe a great heavyweight but he came along at the wrong time. He wanted the public to give him the same attention they gave to Ali, but Larry it was more than boxing that we love about Ali.

 

loose ropes, heat of zaire etc etc

 

Frazier also gave Ali problems , Ali also fought Doug Jones but never beat him , and I did watch that fight , Chuvalo gave him problems , Shavers hit him bad. Ron Lyle outboxed him , Bonavena gave him problems.
You must be a real prodigy to see Ali handling Mike Tyson after these and others.
Ali is overrated and you keep ignoring the facts about him.

 

this :deal

 

To paraphrase Eddie Murphy's character in Coming To America - "HERE WE GO.....HERE WE GO.....ANYTIME I BRING UP ZAIRE...SOME ALI KNOCKER GOES AND HAULS THE LOOSE ROPES OUTA HIS ASS...." I've said before that the loose ropes can't have made too much of a difference to the result. As for the heat,well,there were TWO boxers in the ring that night,and Ali did n't have air conditioners in HIS corner either. Ironically,a lot of pundits cited the African heat,pre fight,as yet another reason why the 32 year old Ali would lose to the younger man. Jimmy Young also fought in the heat in San Juan '77.

 

Many people also frequently say that it was the heat that beat Ray Robinson, not Joe Maxim. As you just said, it's not like it wasn't hot in Maxim's corner either.