Ali post Manila to 1978

I recommend the book facing Ali. Holmes has some interesting things to say. One of which is he was kicked out of camp because he was too fast for Ali. Very plausible.

 

Bull**** ! Holmes wasn't kicked out of Ali's camp at all, he decided to leave to pursue his own career and to better the $500 wages he was getting as a sparring partner .Holmes was with Ali 4 years and left in 1975 just after the Ali vWepner fight. Nowhere in that book does Holmes or anyone else say he was kicked out ,sacked asked to leave, or anything like it.

In 1975 immediately following Ali's defence against Chuck Wepner,Holmes left the camp for good


."At that point ,[Ali ]couldn't handle me anyway.I was too fast.I knew every move he made.Four years of boxing with him I know him.And I didnt want to be labelled as just a sparring partner.I wanted to be a sparring partner to learn.And I did , I learned with Joe Frazier I learned with Earnie Shavers,I learned with a lot of heavyweight contenders.But I wanted to get on my own and make some money -not five hundred dollars a week"
Page 287" Facing Ali"
More lies from the Forum's resident Liar!
Caught out once again!:good

 

Nearly three years passed between Zaire and Foreman's retirement. Why have you narrowed it down to a few months? He was game for an immediate rematch. There's no reason he couldn't have faced Ali instead of Wepner, Bugner or Lyle. He'd been inactive less than a year at that point. The offers were there. Foreman was saying as early as '75 that he didn't think Ali would give him a rematch, which was part of the reason he was despondent and stayed inactive during that year. Ali was the only fight he wanted.

So again, why couldn't Foreman take the place of Dunn or Coopman? I keep reading phrases like Foreman wasn't "ready", was "undeserving", was "at the back of the queue", "didn't cut it". Yet Ali's other opponents in this period clearly weren't being held to such standards. Remember even Young, though ranked, was not highly thought of at the time and according to Cosell was a 15-1 underdog against Ali. Though it was painful in other ways, it was hardly a punishing fight for Ali either.

At the end of '76 an Ali-Foreman fight was a natural. He'd re-established himself as #1 contender, shaken off any rust and was Ali's only remaining big rival besides Norton. So why was Ali's next opponent the completely undeserving Evangelista? Why was Ali fighting Evangelista at all? Before that was signed, and before Young-Foreman took place, he was in talks to face legendary Hall of Famer Lorenzo Zanon. He also spent a big chunk of '77 trying to put together a fight with Alfio Righetti. It looks as if Foreman, a fight which, you say, Ali wanted more than any other, still wasn't on his radar, hence why Foreman ended up fighting Young. When exactly did Ali plan on fighting him, after he'd beaten Zanon and Righetti?

King wasn't the only one who could put the fight together. MSG and Arum put together Ali-Norton III, for instance, which was Ali's biggest purse to date. In his '74 Playboy interview Ali mentions an Indonesian oilman who offered him $7.5m for an immediate rematch with Foreman. There was a $5.5m-$4.5m split offered by Robert Hagopian, who said he couldn't get Ali to commit. There was an Italian promoter who wanted to stage the fight in Monte Carlo. Foreman spoke of an offer from Egypt, and so on. Foreman wasn't retired when all of these were being made.

You can't blame Ali for Foreman retiring. You can blame him for being more interested in making movies and fighting wrestlers and no hopers than a top contender in arguably the biggest and most lucrative fight out there for him post-Zaire. Stall for long enough and eventually the challenger will be knocked off by another challenger, which of course is exactly what happened.

There was no other reason for the fight not to happen. Foreman wanted it. The money and the interest was there. When you add all the stuff with Foreman to his similar manoeuvrings over the fourth Norton fight, it just tells me he didn't want to face certain fighters at this point. Arguably he'd earned the right to cherry pick after his run from 64-74, but cherry picking he was.

 

Are you being deliberately stupid, or is it a natural action from you?

What part of Foreman was exposed, humiliated, and thoroughly demoralised by Ali are you having trouble understanding? Immediate rematch, after that showing? Don't make me fvcking laugh.

Whilst Ali fought Wepner, Lyle, Bugner and Frazier within a calender year of fighting Foreman, your boy was sitting back in Houston dribbling, and sucking his thumb. A completely broken fighter, and more importantly, a broken man.

Immediate rematch my ass.

 

Read ferdies books, they are very revealing indeed. ali, had major problems with his kidneys according to ferdies book!! Remember, the tests before the holmes fight at mayo clinic?

 

Even more fuel to the fire... Foreman had hired Jerry Perenchio in 1975 to put the rematch together. the guy who had put on the biggest fight in history with Ali--Frazier 1. he couldn't get the Ali camp to sign and pulled out of the sport late 1975.

So who did Geroge get to promote him? Don king. The guy who put together the Zaire fight. And he couldn't get the Ali camp to sign.

And Jimmy young was barely on the radar screen prior to his Ali fight. He had the 2 wins over Lyle aand that was it. No promoter of note and no big money behind him. Similar to Wlad's last few opponents for folks not following the sport at the time.

The fight was tougher for ali than expected, but he was a prohibitive favorite. And they had such a tough time selling the fight, it ended up in that boxing mecca---Landover, Maryland.

Ali won a lopsided 1 way decision in the bout.

It was a real sad time for the sport. The start of heavyweight title cherry picking. A page right out of the Patterson title run.

The irony of all of this is the guy most insulted in all of this--Foreman--fought the toughest competition maybe the sport has seen in a 6 fight era---Undefeated Frazier 1. Norton. Softie defense with Roman. A guy named Ali. A ko loss in that and comes back against a hitter in Lyle, instead of a soft opponent. Then, Frazier rematch.

 

Can anyone pinpoint where in time it became a thing that you have to beat someone TWICE for it to count?

Foreman sat out 15 months after losing to Ali. He did, literally, fall to the back of the pack.

By the time he resumed, Ali had made a number of defenses, including Frazier in Manilla and Lyle ... so Foreman's wins over them on his return were feeding on Ali's leftovers.

Is it the supposition that Ali, as champion, is obligated to sit around and wait for a year and a quarter for Foreman to decide to fight again ... and then slot him right into the schedule regardless of the fact that George wasn't active and had lost a lot of appeal at the box office? Just because ... what? Why wasn't the same true for George giving Frazier a return?

 

Did you follow the sport back then?

What did you think of Ali's first defense after the fight in Zaire? Were you picking that guy to win?

How about that Joe Bugner rematch for the title? Yeah, lots of folks couldn't wait for that one. Ali fought Norton because he dad to. Kenny wouldn't go away. But Norton was cherry picking himself and hardly going through a who's who of title contenders after his Foreman loss. Grade B and C guys and a washed up Quarry.

And nobody was picking Joe for the Manilla fight. Nobody. After Foreman, he looked bad against Bugner. Beat an old Quarry, but that's always going to be an ideal matchup for Joe. Then, the Ellis rematch that was barely televised. And Joe looked real bad in that one too. But the thought was Frazier was damaged goods and a shot fighter.

Now he certainly rose to the ocassion for 1 last great effort, the way the top fighters do. but the ali camp wouldn't have signed that contract either if they knew it was going to be that tough.

After the Norton fight, it was all guys out of left field for a title shot. And the guys mentioned to get a title shot back then was everyone but a Foreman.

Schutte. Ever see him fight? Zanon was mentioned. They wanted Duane Bobick but he got dusted in less than a round by a guy with minimal early ko's in Norton. Shavers gets a title shot. Nobody thought earnie could even go 12 with a top 10 heavy. They figured he'd ko them or get stopped himself. But after that Lyle loss, not exactly a who's who of opponents either.And after the Ali fight, he fought holmes and was badly outclassed.

Evangelista. I actually think he won the Ali fight. just like the Young fight, he was the only guy landing in there. Ali would shoe shine and throw a few flurries but nothing would land. 15 rounds of Alfredo Evangelista.

And spinks was very carefully selected as an opponent. And he came in with a recent draw against Ledoux of all people for title shot credentials in his 7 total fights.

A horrible time for the sport.

 

Ali came back after 3 and a half years exile and took on the number 3 rated contender.:think

 

I dont normally agree with this guy, but hes hit the nail on the head.

Why would Ali need to rematch a guy he just KTFO.

And its not like Foreman had suddenly become a better fighter, in fact, he was worse off than before

 

People are just clutching at straws here.

Accusing Ali of ducking a rematch from a guy he KTFO.

Its just as ******ed as Khan fans accusing Danny Garcia of avoiding a rematch.

When you've just knocked somebody the **** out, you have very little motivation to go and give that clown a rematch.

 

Young was the number 2 contender when Ali defended against him ,number 3 the next year, and number 2 again the following year.What are you on?:huh

 

After koing heavy favourite undefeated Foreman,
Ali defended against:
no10 Wepner. 5months later.
no 5 Lyle. 1 month later.
no8 Bugner . 1 month later.
no3 Frazier .4 months later.
Coopman. 4 months later.
no2 Young .2 months later.
Dunn .1 month later.
no2 Norton .4 months later.
no8 Evangelista. 8 months later.
no 8.Shavers .4 months later

Ten defences in 2 years, 8 over top ten rated men.

Yeah a horrible time for the sport.atsch

 

It certainly was if you attended fights back then and wanted to go to more big competitively matched fights.

the big thing is, if you and specifically the Ali camp thought Foreman would have made for such an easy rematch, why didn't they sign the contract for a huge payday?

Big big $$$ for an easy night's work, right? Sign the contract & obviously the ali braintrust wouldn't do it.


Nobody was picking those guy's to win, going into the fights. They were considered easy victories, aside from the Norton rematch. soft matchmaking.

Lyle was not looked at as all that much and Quarry had shown fatal flaws. Nobody thought Ronnie had the speed to deal with the guy. Wepner beat who to get his shot?

Bugner. Less said the better. And just what scalps did he have anyway? Coopman. Fight should not have been approved.

Young was a guy that had decisions over Lyle. That's it. 17-4 w/ 5 ko's getting a title shot. And like I said earlier, the fight could not sell. Why do you think it ended up in Landover anyway?

Richard Dunn. Did you actually place some money on the guy or something?

Earnioe was a name guy who feasted on third teir fighters. He sure did not feast on top fighters because he didn't face any. And he had some koby results on that ledger. It was not expected to be a competitive match. The best odds on the fight was the over/under. With shavers not making it late.

How'd Ernie do in his next fight when he fought Holmes and not old reflexes Ali?

How many minutes of the fight did you think he won?

Don't get confused with names. Look at their form going into a fight.