Ali provides a detailed analysis of his destruction of Cleveland Williams & others

You don't think he hit harder in the 60's, despite having a clear record of decking, dispatching and hurting a better percentage of fighters and having it available on film.

You don't think that he would be busier despite the fact that its also clear as day that he was a busier fighter in his prime.

You think that he would always have faired better fighting Frazier in the pocket, which is where Joe "likes" to keep his men.

If you believe the above notions to be true, then there's not much that I am going to do to convince you of anything. Having nearly 25,000 posts on this website as opposed to my near 7,000, despite joiningg later, is testimony that you have more time to fancy such arguments than I do. I prefer to take the common sense approach and be done with it, but I guess some of us need our creative outlets as well......:good

 

I think that his ABILITY, to dispatch fighters was better. Weather it had to do with power or not, and I don't think this can be disputed, or at least not by an honest person.

Why does this not work? You seem to think that for a fighter to land more and be more effective that he ALWAYS has to stand toe to toe with another man... On the contrary, I would say that boxing does not work THAT way.

Frazier did better against men who he kept close or in the pocket if you will. I don't see a 60's Ali as giving him his way.... That's all.

 

My point is that I don't think Frazier had lost more speed compared to his peak than Ali had. Overall I would guess that Ali had lost a bit more of his physical attributes than Frazier had. Hard to say for certain, though.

He was not completely without bias, though, was he? While Ali did his fair share of holding, some clinches are just Frazier coming in and putting his face on Ali's chest. The ref defended himself by claiming that Frazier seemed content to rest in many clinches. I don't think Futch was interested in making such a distinction.

And is there any real reason to believe that there were fewer clinches a round in FOTC? Futch would for obvious reason be less inclined to take the time to count them.

Anyhow I don't deny that holding was a part of Ali's tactic (it was in most of his fights, actually), but he did his fair share of moving as well. This fight gets diminished to Ali just holding and pity-patting his way to a (possibly unjust) decision. I don't agree with this description, even though it was clearly the least exciting and enjoyable fight of the three, but I also think it was the one where Ali put in his most accomplished perfomance.

 

I'm leaving this one alone....

 

Ali's style was based on speed and footwork. Pre-ali exile was better on both accounts so as spock would say it's only logical that he was the better ali (as can be clearly seen on FILM). since winning the title in 1964 to 1967 his record was very impressive - 8 ko's in 10 championship fights with no knockdowns to his name. Frazier, norton etc would be tough as always for Ali cuz they were great fighters but they would have a harder time against a young better conditioned and quicker ali who was at the TOP of his game. Frazier would have a harder time keeping him pinned against the ropes - against liston he got away from the ropes asap and he used this tactic not surprisingly in his 2nd fight with frazier (ali was in better conditioning & shape for that one with 3 years of fights under his belt).

 

The man did his homework! No doubt.

Anyhow, let's wrap this up with agreeing to disagree. I think you've made some valid points, but still feel pretty comfortable in my own position. Too bad we never got to see these guys prime for prime, with no excuses being possible. But, of course, that happens about ... never.

 

No need coming clean, I had swallowed it hook, line etc

 

nice video, legend

 

williams was 65-5-1 when these two met. ali was 26-0 . ali was younger had way less fights, so ali was supposed to do what he did to williams. williams was too late in his career to even have been considered a noteable win for ali. this is a different fight when williams was in his prime. williams reaction times were more dialed in and actually imo would have easily challenged and possibly beaten ali. the fight that was fought williams could not even see the punches coming half the time. unfortunatly these fights happen aka ali vs holmes, tyson vs holmes etc. im a big believer in someone inventing a boxing time machine to see fighters matched up in their top true form.