Ali provides a detailed analysis of his destruction of Cleveland Williams & others

some people just don't get it! this was all about ali - how fast he was his feet, how beautiful he moved around the ring, broken rhythem, shuffle, his lightning punches, devastating combos, non-stop movement, use of attacking angles, knocking someone down as he was moving backwards etc. Many feel this was Ali at the top his his game regardless of the opponent. His skills were at a level in heavyweight boxing that had never been seen before or since in the ring - well that's my opinion and many others feel the same. That's why this fight is highly rated by Ali fans and boxing experts in history. Cleveland Williams was unlucky to be facing that Ali as any other fighter would be facing him on that NITE and yes that includes frazier or norton or whoever louis, dempsey, marciano and yes certainly he would have a harder time against better opposition.

 

Just a quick one to say thanks to whoever posted the links. From purely a technical boxing standpoint it's some of the best footage I've ever seen of Ali. I absolutely loved listening to him commentating on his own fights!

Thanks again

 

Chuvalo was strong but he was no Frazier in the power nor pace department and Frazier made you really work. Who else did Ali beat that was even near Frazier or the fighters he fought in his comeback....Williams was shot...So was Foley....Cooper was Henry Cooper who was KO'd by Patterson cold in 4...Jones gave him hell and Terrel was really a nothing, were any of them near the fighter Frazier was

 

You could use that same logic to say that since Frazier struggled against Quarry he shouldn't have had any business fighting Ali, since Ali easily defeated Quarry. Styles make fights. And the only reason Chuvalo even touched Ali was because Ali let him.

As to your other assertions, the Jones fight was not prime Ali. That Ali imo, is the Ali from the second Liston fight onward, he is more cut and filled out looking, and had developed his dancing style. And Ali beating Liston and Patterson, the two major champions of the era like they were nothing is fairly impressive, then beating the rest of the competition soundly is equally so. I don't think any of those fighters were as good as Frazier. But by that same token, as others have said, past-prime Ali utilized movement in the first five rounds of his rematch with Frazier before he got tired, and Joe couldn't do anything with him. Prime Ali could do that faster and in a more elusive fashion, plus he brought more workrate to the table. I don't think Joe would have been able to handle it.

It's proven time and time that speed kills in boxing. 64-67 Ali had much more than his older incarnation. There's no reason to expect Joe would fare well against that edition of Ali given how he fared for the five round stretch of 74 Ali showing him movement.

 

you shouldn't speak the truth on here good post!

 

Where have I ever said that any of these guys were nearly as good as Frazier? Seems you want to confuse the issue here, since you really have no basis for claiming that 215 lbs Ali in FOTC was somewhow stronger than 212 lbs Ali of four years earlier, when he had spent the vast majority of those four years collecting rust and fat.

 

Since you are talking of the comeback version of Ali vs the younger vs Quarry and the younger version of Frazier vs Quarry....Ali cut Quarry and the fight was stopped quick ( I think it could have gone on) We can not compare Chuvalo to Frazier (Frazier stopped Chuvalo in 3 and Chuvalo went the distance with Ali 2 times...The thing is the energetic swarmers like Frazier was the style that troubled Ali in all 3 fights ( and Frazier slipped after ALI 1)...Frazier was the toughest opponent Ali ever faced ( it could be argued Liston) but Ali never had trouble with the big slow punchers ( neither did Quarry) it was the persistant hard punching guys with Stamina that troubled Ali...Frazier fights the Bill not Norton so much as a puncher but Norton was in condition and not a guy that was big and slow like Liston and Foreman...yes styles make fights and Ali had trouble with Fraziers style

 

Yeah, Frazier was better than almost all Ali's other opponents, and he was also a difficult stylistic match-up for Ali. And water is wet.

 

I also note that you make it a bit easy for yourself. Folley shot? Nonsense. Yes, at 34 he was a bit past his very physical best. But he was a top ranked contender, definitely the most worthy that was left, hadn't lost for four years (decision against Terrell) and had beaten Chuvalo, Mildenberger and Bonavena during that period. If that's your deinition of "shot" then you gonna find that most contenders really was walking corpses. About as smart as calling Quarry shot in the rematch with Frazier. A valid comparison would probably be with the Norton who fought Holmes. He was also 34, but still going strong.

As for Williams, well he was of course literally shot. But he was still ranked around 5 by both the Ring and Boxing Illustrated, so he should have had something left to offer. Shot for me is Ali against Holmes or Tyson during one of his last fightss. Williams who never had been more than a contender still was one, so even his best years was far behind him it's not like he had nothing left

 

This ranking was based purely on what he'd done before he was shot. He did nothing on his comeback to earn that kind of ranking. In fact, he didn't even deserve a top 30 ranking based on who he beat in 1966. It just proves that the boxing mags had favourites too. It's nice that he was able to make some money after what happened to him but if we're honest, he had no business fighting for a world title.

 

Fair enough.

 

I cant agree that Terrell was "really a nothing".
Going into the fight with Ali ,Terrell had not lost a fight for 5 years, he was the WBA Champ and had made defences of it against Jones and Chuvalo.
In 7 of his last 9 fights Terrell had beaten .
Bob Foster
Doug Jones
George Chuvalo
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Gerhard Zech
He was the number 1 contender if ever a fighter deserved a shot at Ali he did.

 

Terrell was the biggest fight out there at the time. I mean 'big' in an important sense, rather than money-spinner. It was the fight the boxing public wanted most.

 

The Ring carried articles hyping it up ,with stills from footage of Terrell and Ali sparring , shots of Ernie landing his jab on a pulling back Ali,unfortunately the fight itself was a dud. Then again Terrell was not an entertaining boxer to watch, he was badly outclassed in the fight ,but did show commendable courage.Ali in contrast showed a marked lack of sportsmanship and a degree of cruelty imo.

 

Shot may have been a strong word but Foley had a lot of troubles outside the ring during that time and was stopped by Doug Jones in 7 rds 4 yrs earlier... Liston 6 yrs earlier and beaten by terrell 4 yrs earlier in his next loss that year Foley lost to Brian London (say no more) still Ali was a great fighter but I dont think the win was great although Ali looked very good...