Ali - The Great Question

The power of cult of personality.

 

The snide remarks that come when you dislike someone for whatever personal reason!

 

Absolutely.

 

Spot on.

 

Yes, there is certainly an extremely strong case for this, and in a joint television interview at the outset of the 1950's, both Louis and Dempsey agreed that their own peaks were around age 24, if I recall correctly. (Dempsey's only bout at 24 was Willard. At 24, Louis starched Schmeling and John Henry Lewis. The latter is a ridiculously underrated and overlooked performance by Louis.)

After Ali-Folley, Don Dunphy's in ring post fight interview of Angelo Dundee did make it clear that the quality of imminent future challengers who could be competitive was an issue. Frazier wasn't ready yet. We know a rematch with Chuvalo would've gone the Championship Distance, but not been competitive. Angie was enthusiastic about Eduardo Corletti, but we know how that would've gone. Buster Mathis was limited, but his size and skill might've extended Ali as well.

That's really the question, not who might've beaten Ali if he'd never gone on hiatus (and I strongly agree he never should have been upgraded from 4F to 1A for the draft), but who the best challengers for him would've been. For his benefit, they have to be challengers who can extend him the Championship Distance and require him to remain in excellent condition.

Of course we have the advantage of hindsight. Bonavena, Chuvalo and Frazier could've taken him the 15 round limit in 1967, 1968 or 1969. In filmed interviews conducted in 1966 and early 1967, Frazier was non acrimoniously calling him "Clay," so Ali certainly cpuld've used that to build up that bout. Unfortunately, Joe wasn't ready to take him on until 1969. A title challenge in late 1967 or 1968 would've been competitive enough that Frazier gets a subsequent title shot, but I don't that Joe ever becomes Champion with a never exiled Muhammad Ali holding the Title.

For me, the great irony of Ali-Bonavena and Manila is that Muhammad stopped Ringo and Joe precisely BECAUSE he was past his peak. During the late 1960's he'd have settled for very clear UD wins. His legs, arms (which he did use to pick off body shots) and clinching would've made his body elusive enough a target that Frazier couldn't reach it with his hook often enough to be competitive on the cards. Ali-Frazier in the late 1960's still would've been very entertaining because Joe was an exciting fighter who never stopped hustling and punching away. But Ali's trademark lean was actually geared for slipping the left hook. His slip and counter hook of Bonavena's left swing may well have been the hardest single punch of his career (check the reverse angle on mute at 0:25 speed on YouTube), and in 1967, 1968 or 1969, he's gonna be hitting Frazier with a lot of those bombs.

Corletti was hot in 1967, so he definitely gets a title shot as Dundee enthused about after Ali-Folley. Muhammad might actually replicate his tour of the UK from the previous year, emphasizing that he is a World Champion globetrotter, so figure on Corletti in London, and maybe even Ali-Cooper III later, where he publicly resolves as he later did with Wepner, not to win on cuts but beat Henry the way Patterson had.

We could've had Ali-Patterson II in that late 1960's time frame, as Floyd made much about his back being screwed up in 1966.

Yet again, as I have posted numerous times in the past, a never exile Ali who never loses the 1960's athleticism both Patterson and Cooper stated he did after their early 1970's rematches, it's Norton who has the best shot at eventually dethroning him, not the far greater Frazier. Kenny did have the combination of height, reach and overhand right to take away Ali's lean and surprise him in a first time encounter, even if Ali gets his impacted wisdom tooth extracted beforehand to prevent any fracture. Their rematches are different though with a never exiled Ali, producing wins for the GOAT that are not disputed outcomes.

If a never exiled Ali had hit Norton with the right that wobbled Ken silly at 2:10 of round six in their middle bout, Muhammad would've moved in for the kill, and that would be all she wrote. Norton was ready to go with 50 seconds left in that round, but 1973 post exile Ali instead conserved himself for the distance as he would not have if he'd never been exiled.


No, Muhammad Ali was not going to get any better after Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley. I agree with you on that, Ney. So the question becomes who he would've gone on to defend against, and when? Defenses which could have extended his peak rather than a lack of oppositional resistance that might've caused him to deteriorate.

No question he gets Frazier before Joe is ready for him. He'd be looking for challengers he could build up publicity with. Good friend Jimmy Ellis does challenge him after stopping Leotis and decking Ringo twice. Ali-Ellis takes place in late 1967 to early 1968, at a time when Jimmy actually did go the Championship Distance with Jerry Quarry and Floyd Patterson back to back. Ellis would've been something Ali could build up, although Jimmy could not have been competitive.

 

Lasting all the way until Norton is an interesting idea I hadn’t considered. Personally I suspect Frazier always wins a first fight with Ali, provided he himself is in his prime, so around 1969. Ali had to lose to him once to figure him out.

 

Frazier was pretty easy to figure out. He was gonna come at you hard all night slamming hooks at body (and the odd right) and head while bobbing and weaving quite effectively and he was barely going to tire. Ali knew what to expect and wouldn't have any ring rust. Ali was also ridiculously fast to adapt when he actually needed to.

 

I’ve never understood this view point. Ali under-estimated Frazier when he was coming off his lay-off, it was a major contributor to his defeat…so without the lay-off, in his prime, roughly 34-0-0 & at the absolute peak of his powers, he’s not going to under-estimate Frazier?

 

It's certainly not impossible he might underrate him but Frazier would be his most hyped challenger post Liston i'd wager if it was done right. Ali would also younger, fitter, more agile, faster etc. If they fought in 69 is the buildup from Ali's side the same? It would be a whole different dynamic, no lent money etc.

 

I suppose there are certain variables yes. Would Frazier be as important in the challenger role? Maybe not, & he wouldn’t have the drive of resentment toward Ali that he did. But as I say, if anything, Ali would only be more susceptible to under-estimating Frazier without the layoff, so who really can say how it would have turned out, except I’m confident it would be a great spectacle regardless, & would bear out a return fight no matter the winner.

 

Oh it would be a great fight, with a return virtually guaranteed at some point. Even pinnacle Ali is going to have to work damn hard. Frazier was hell on wheels for boxers.

 

Good effort.Dundee said we never saw the best of Ali,his prime was the years he was robbed of.I have to go with that.

 

To me, what makes Ali so great is the fact that after 3+ years of inactivity he still was able to win the title, because he clearly wasn’t the same fighter. What my eye shows me is his footwork was vastly diminished, his punch volume and consistency fell off, fewer combinations, and even though he still was the fastest man in boxing, I think even his speed and defensive reactions were a bit diminished. And yet he was able to adapt and still win.

 

I don't think he underestimated Jerry Quarry, which is why he performed so well in their rematch. I wonder how JQ might've done if brother Mike was not competing on that card, or at least hadn't nearly been decapitated by Bob Foster in a bout Jerry was watching. (For all JQ knew, Mike had collapsed and died back in the dressing room after what BF had done.)

Whatever the case, Ali was prepared for the very best which Jerry Quarry could potentially bring into the ring, and performed accordingly.