Ali the person?

Good points. As much as I admired Frazier,Joe could be very two faced at times,on the subject of Ali.

 

He was sadly that way in real life as well. One day, he'd forgiven Ali and loved the guy. The other, hated him and derided him.

Look at the difference between the HBO documentary and Facing Ali.

On one, he's angry, passionate, and very harsh with his talk of divine justice.

On the other, he's weeping openly at Ali's condition, proclaiming his love, and calling Ali a "great guy."

Joe is a great man and was an even better fighter, but his views are NOT evidence that Ali was or wasn't a good man, because Joe himself never could decide which one he believed.

 

Hard to judge the man as a person,,,,,,,,when we have only seen him as a 'personality'.

Not sure when to take him seriously,,,,, and not sure when he was joking.

More complex of an individual than we can imagine,,,,,,,,,I guess.

He did make a statement,,,,,,,,'When I leave boxing, the sport will die'

When in reality,,,,,,,, 'When he left boxing,,,,,,he died.'

 

I think Joe likely had little life after boxing, boxing was the highlight of his life. And I think that's why he was so obsessed with the Ali conflict, it was the highlight of his life, even the negative aspects of it. That's why it was hard to let go of because there was nothing positive to put his energy into. If there was a Frazier Grill or a chain of Frazier gyms or something really positive he wouldn't be fixating on his conflicts with Muhammed Ali

 

Does anybody have or know of video footage of Ali saying all of these things? I'm fascinated as this is the first I've heard of Ali being so virulently racist.

 

I suppose some would describe it as sacreligious,the way Joe gets criticised for this. Joe was a great fighter and man,but he DID have HIS faults too.

 

The best book I have read overall is 'Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times' by Thomas Hauser. It interviews just about every key player in the story, and is packed with useful information about Ali the fighter and the man, the historical background, the religion, politics, Ali's earnings etc. (If you are UK based it is often available in HMV cheap)

It is overall a very favourable portrait, (although it does talk of the less appealing aspects of Ali - his womanizing, it gives Frazier a chance to have his say, talks of Ali's foolishnness with money etc) Hauser is definitely an Ali fan.

Then, to balance this book I suggest 'Ghosts of Manila' by Mark Kram, which focuses on the Ali vs Frazier rivalry. This account is quite critical of Ali...so if you read both, you'll get a good overall view of Ali. (Available in 'The Works' for £2!)

Ali had aspects of both his parents in his personality...his mother, Odessa was by all accounts a wonderful and kind person. His father, Cash was an edgy street wise hustler. Ali's personality could switch between both.

Ali was completely in the pocket of The Nation of Islam, and most of the stupid things he said about race came from them. Ali joined a much saner sect of Islam later on and mellowed nicely into middle age. He publically disassociated himself from the nuttier NOI views he held about race ("White devils", etc).

I have read quite a bit about Ali and have never come across these claims of violence towards women before. Who was he supposed to have beaten? I'm not about to start believing them until someone posts reputable sources to back up these stories.

He was serially unfaithful to his wives. But even the critical 'Ghosts of Manila' makes no claim of Ali being a wife beater.

 

I know its in one of his micheal parkinson interviews he did 3 i think. I don't know which one it is though.

 

I saw a documentary on Ali in which a video clip was shown of him on either David Frost or Dick Cavett in 1968. Questioned on the premise of white people being devils as a tenant of NOI, he replied "That is the teaching, and I believe the teachings of Elijah Muhammad." The interviewer then asked "All white people? What about the Kennedys?" Ali replied "Are they white?" The same documentary showed him being asked many years later "Do you still believe that white people are devils?" Ali replied "No. They come in all colors." (Not sure if he was denying the original belief or expanding it. Would prefer to believe the former.)

Another documentary showed him on the Mike Douglas show in the summer of 1970. A guest asked him if he would some day like to run for public office, maybe the Senate. He immediately become angry and went on a rant, concluding that he "would never serve under the white man's flag." (Oddly, in the 1990s the wax figure of Ali in Madame Toussad's in London was posed in front of a large, billowing American flag.)

Don't know if any of these clips are out on YouTube or the like. In addition, during the buildup to the FOTC, he referred to himself as the true champion and Joe Frazier as the "white man's champion" in many news and sports clips at the time.

 

Ali had IQ of 72! That gets mention rarely!

 

He said he was the Greatest, not the Brightest, though I think he was an intelligent man to some degree.