Ali v tyson

Tyson was a brilliant "on top" destructive machine during his prime years. As much as we are disagree and counter back at each other, I'm positive you don't think he's god, because I sure don't think he's the devil.

He was shot post prison. To what extent exactly?. Because Tyson looked pretty good against McNeely, Mathias, Bruno, and Seldon. Before his fight with Holyfield, nobody was claiming he was looking shot in the four fights previously. Holyfield seen the openings, and capatalised on them, he also had the heart and self belief. Tyson was exposed, plain and simple. Coming to the conclusion he was not quite as good as his prime days I can accept, but "shot" is simply too strong.

Ali was shot against Holmes and Berbick, and Tyson against Lewis, Williams, and McBride.

I'll tell you one thing, Tyson looked awesome against Savarese 7 years ago. The timing and leverage of the left hook he dropped Savarse with was not a man who looked shot to me.

 

He had enough preparation, the fight was mooted before Tyson beat Biggs in fact. The 38 year old version was always going to get mashed.

 

Exactly, peak Tyson was a little different to Mercer, McCall and co, and offensively certainly far more dangerous as a stoppage threat than Holyfield to Holmes.

 

Tyson's only chance is by KO. We all know that. He's not going to outbox Ali and win by decision. That leaves us with the big question. Can Mike KO Ali? It all depends on which Ali we're talking about. The Ali that defeated Cleveland Williams, Sonny Liston the 2nd time, Joe Frazier and George Foreman would be too much for Mike. Fighters like Quick Tillis and Buster Douglas laid out the blueprint for beating a fighter like Mike. Movement. Stick and move, box and tie him up in close. If you have a good chin to boost then you can beat Mike and Ali had one of the best chins(if not the best) in the history of the HW division. Ali would also have a big mental edge over Mike who was a bit screwy if you catch my drift. When the going got tough Ali got going (to paraphrase an old saying) wheras Mike folded. Styles make fights as we all know and Ali had just the right style for a puncher like Tyson. A young Ali, the one who got dropped by Banks and Cooper and had fits with Doug Jones, probably would have been KOed by MIke. But a fully mature Ali, bigger and stronger than the aforementioned version, would be too much for Mike.

 

For once....Agreed..

I think Holyfield beat a good version of Tyson..

Again like Ali Tyson came back from his lay off with a loss in speed, fluidity, reflexes. While they were still well above average, his ring smarts should have carried him like they carried Ali but Tyson's ring smarts simply were not there.

Tyson looked rusty against McNeeley and Mathis.

He look sharp against Bruno and Seldon.

Holyfield prepared very well for Mike. He knew what he was going to do and planned it accordingly. He took away Mike's left hook completely.

 

That's a rather intriguing query.

Jeffries wasn't dropped until his comeback (during an era of 2 ounce gloves). Holmes wasn't dropped from Snipes in 1981 to Tyson in 1988, and then, never again in his remaining 24 matches over the next 14 years (Esch didn't drop him to the deck anymore than Roldan punched down Hagler). Foreman was never floored during his second career, spanning ten years and 34 fights. It can be argued that Ali did not sustain a legitimate KD from the FOTC to the end of his career against Berbick nearly eleven years later, a span of 29 matches.

Tunney was only dropped by Dempsey, in the next to last bout of his career, his 86th contest. Max Baer was floored by Louis in Baer's 49th battle, then not again, until Lou Nova retired him in Baer's 94th match, nearly six years later. Of course Chuvalo was never dropped in 93 bouts over a span of more than 22 years (although Frazier and Foreman stopped him on his feet).

In 28 fights over more than eight years, nobody came close to flooring Liston (from the middle bout with Marshall, until Clay nearly scored an early third round KD in their first encounter nearly identical to the one Ali actually did score the next year in Maine), then not again until Leotis Martin put him down and out over four years later.

In Tony Galento's 110 fights, I can only find evidence for Joe Louis flooring Two-Ton in his 104th match. (If true, this might make Galento the only HW to get through his first 100 competitive fights without tasting the canvas. Tony deserves enormous credit for coming off the deck to return the favor, something no other opponent of Louis's could lay claim to in Joe's 72 match career spanning over 17 years.) Uzcudun was only floored by Louis, in the 70th and final match of Paulino's career, spanning a stretch of over a dozen years boxing with five and six ounce gloves.

While Tyson was certainly not chinny by any stretch of the imagination, his ability to remain upright was not unprecedented either.

 

Thanks for the info and effort Duo, much appreciated.

Jeffries, Tunney, Liston. Amazing!

The Foreman 'phoenix from the ashes' career is a good one, but Holy did put some serious hurt on him on some of their rounds. Likewise, Ali got smashed around during his second phase (71-78) even if he didnt actually hit the deck. During Tyson 86-89 you never saw him being 'comboed' to death like 2nd career Foreman and Ali.

Concede the Holmes stat, but admittedly it does include prolonged inactivity and some very ordinary contenders...

Love the comment on Galento, that is surely a great stat. But Galento, like Chuvalo, wasn't the champ defending against legit #1 contenders like Iron Mike was.

Great food for thought.

 

Boxing fans of the late 80's and 90's often think Tyson was a great fighter. That is mostly due to the level of competition during that era. Had he fought in the same era as Ali or Holmes it would be a different story. In Ali's era he would have been considered a B level fighter. Later with Larry Holmes as the dominate force in the HW division Tyson would have faired better, but he would never have been champion. Put Tyson against a prime Ali or a prime Holmes he loses 9 out of 10 times against either. Put him with Liston; he'd probably win 1 out of 3. Against Marciano, he gets brutalized. I mean think about it. Was Buster Douglas better than Ali, or Holmes. Was he better than Marciano, Foreman, or Patterson? To me the whole question of Tyson ever beating any of the ATG's at HW while they were in their prime is ridiculous. Tyson against Ali in Ali's era would never have come up. Prime for Prime Ali wins by humilation.

Boo

 

The smart money is on a close, but clear UD for Ali. However, a prime-time Tyson has a genuine shot at beaten anybody on his best night- he'd have to do it before the mid-rounds in this one though, and given Ali's great chin, powers of recovery and movement it would be an extremely tough ask. Ali eventually takes Tyson into the deep water of the later rounds after braving out the early stages, Can't see a stoppage, though the longer this fight goes on the less it favours Tyson.

Ali UD15 Tyson

 

Holmes had one of the best uppercuts of the Heavyweight Champions,check out his fight with Mike Weaver.

 

Of course translated some of this means Tyson mopped up the guys Holmes had already beaten. It also means they were older and usually had some taken out of them, most often by Larry. Also, if Holmes era was the shittiest and you tell us how Tyson was fighting a lot of the same opponents.......

Lewis, Douglas and Holyfield obliterated Tyson too, not to mention Danny Williams and McBride showing him who was daddy.

Foreman would have mopped the floor with your precious Mike Tyson and Frazier was close to even money too. Tyson fought 2 great opponents and they both mopped the floor with him.

Don't forget he'd also be fighting someone with about 1/4 of his heart and resolve. Tyson better get him out fast too

 

He must be rating the Holmes that fought Tyson and i agree with him, by this time Holmes had nothing at all. Holmes uppercut in his peak would have given Tyson fits.

 

Yeah, gem of an album wasn't it? Amongst the greatest ever committed to vinyl. No doubt. :good

Pity about the sophomore slump, though ... :-(

 

Would be similar to the frasier fights but tyson not having smokey joes stamina would be exhausted and become increasingly frustrated by Ali.
consequently He'd get KO'd in the 8th or 9th round