Ali vs Ellis..

Good post. :good

 

What happened in the immediate,and distant aftermath of the fights is immaterial to the point. Ali won at least 20 of the 27 rounds they fought.

 

Nope. I enjoyed it too.

 

Don't fully agree. Yes, Ali went many of his fights around this time at half pace (Blin, Mathis, Foster, Patterson, Blin etc), but against Ellis he was in good shape and eager to impress. A bad showing in this fight could have been the end of his career after all.

There is a very interesting program where Ali watched the Ellis fight together with Cossell and commentated on it. He highlighted how him making Ellis miss and look ineffectual in the 4th was an effective way of breaking his confidence. If you have a bigger, stronger opponent in front of you with his hands down and you still can't hit him, it will affect you.

Much of what is seen as Ali just fooling around was really a way to break opponents' spirit.

 

no , and even if he did it matters much less than d actual medically proven damage that Chuvalo inflicted on him without being inflicted on himself .
Which is d essence of d game instead of receiving score based on clowning & retreating

 

I don't know about loaded gloves throughout but Clay-Ali definitely won many of his fights by all kinds of crooked tricks, including fixed gloves (Cooper 1 - and why haven't the record books been corrected to show Cooper winning that fight by KO, which he did!?)

 

Cosell used to comment to Clay/Ali about he twisted his gloves on impact to cut and swell his opponent.

 

Ali received his timeout due 2 Dundee cutting/expanding d hole in d glove. He also received smelling salts which were illegal then . The above combined with Cooper's tendency 2 cut prevented Ali from getting knocked out which was a more than just realistic possibility if d fight was conducted legitimately . But since when Ali's fight were conducted legitimately ?
Matter 4 thought :
1) If d glove was not initially torn by Dundee then it just might happened due 2 some foreign object put inside it .
2) If d glove was not initially torn by Dundee then a tear in it in itself , even if not loaded would have turned it into a bareknuckle glove , which of course helps 2 produce cuts and enhance damage .
3) If d glove was initially torn by Dundee ..
4) If d glove was not initially torn by Dundee but was rather cut by him after Ali's knockdown ..

 

This might explain d cut but what about d glove itself ? why did it tear ? because of d twist ? and Dundee did claim himself (warning : believing a claim made by Dundee is only on the reader's responsibility) that he expanded d hole in it . He did buy him extra time and he did give him smelling salts . These r 2 facts that mattered . Cooper losing only due 2 cuts mattered also .

 

That crooked Clay win over Henry Cooper is something else. Dundee has admitted cutting the glove to give Clay extra time to recover between rounds. He admitted that much. I think the extra time was close to five minutes, but it is hard to tell now because they seem to have expunged all the original tapes, and the powers that be cover up for Clay. I watched a video of that fight on ESPN and this is what they did: They spliced the round in question together with the following round and then they played it through without comment as if nothing at all happened between rounds. They deliberately covered it up!

Good points about what other illegal tactics Clay-Ali used in that particular fight, and even today I don't see anybody inspecting boxers' gloves. Refs used to feel up the gloves in the ring but no more, so even if they're inspected in the locker room, and I don't know with what regularity taht's done, what is to prevent someone slipping something small and sharp into them between there and the ring, into the laces perhaps. I'm thinking of Lennox Lewis cutting up Vitali klitschko. Vitali had never even been cut before, neither in kick boxing nor boxing, and suddenly his face looks sliced to pieces.

Henry Cooper won that fight by KO. Even if Dundee's tricks got Clay one extra second it was illegal and Cooper won. Why haven't the record books been corrected?

 

If u read d Dundee interview posted by some1 (not sure who) in my thread about Ali and used a little processing of information then u would have known how honest Dundee was , and then come d story about d zaire ropes which must add 2 Dundee's honesty & integrity flawless repuation ...

Want proof ? d glove was either torn and then Dundee expanded d tear or was torn & expanded by Dundee when Ali needed his break .
Or maybe it was torn by Dundee right from d beginning and then he expanded it ?
Anyway u cut it (pun intended) , Dundee is 2 blame .
Not enough ? what about d smelling salts ?
Convicted criminals (and proven criminals in general) such as Dundee , Panama Lewis , Hopkins , Ali and others must be held guilty unless proven otherwise .
This is y whenever a (new) crime is discovered , d police starts by suspecting known / proven criminals in d vicinity of d crime scene at first .

I read this forum 4 years (I started reading it b4 joining it) and I read other forums also .
But I also watched fights and used some thought about what I saw and read . Sorry 4 not imitating those "better posters" (worse posters) in my posts .

 

Again , because Dundee's acts prevented Ali from being counted out which would have probably would have been d case if it was a legit fight

 

There were similar cases 2 Cooper vs Ali , baring d smelling salts and d ultra super extra criminal edit of d video :
Evander Holyfield vs Bert Cooper
Michael Moorer vs Bert Cooper
Cooper would have stopped them both without it .

 

Ellis and him had sparred hundreds of rounds, and both were trained by Dundee. It was a sparring session for money, that is all.

 

BTW , I still don't have anything 2 suggest that Ali cheated in this (vs Ellis) fight as well .. maybe he did but IDK yet .
It might have been enough 4 him being both d bigger and d younger man .
Not that it was enough for him vs Henry Cooper or George Chuvalo