Ali vs Foreman : 2

Foreman KTFO8 Ali

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"Corner Men" and "In the Corner" are two must-haves. Especially the latter. I loved the treatment of Blackburn in it.

Do you remember what they called Arcel during the "bum of the month" days? The Meat Wagon. I found that hilarious and can picture poor Ray dragging Louis's latest victim across the mat with that eternal Q-Tip hanging of his lip. Arcel's record against Joe suggests more a problem of raw materials than expertise... Mickey Duff played Micky the Dunce against Hagler after all, but look at what he was up against!

As for Foreman, he stuck with Archie Moore during the early part of his comeback and I always thought that it was not the greatest match. Incidentally, I never thought highly of that crab defensive style. I don't think it worked well for Foreman, Norton, or even Moore himself. It inhibited the ability to counter quickly and was full of gaping holes.

 

"In the Corner" by Dave Anderson has been on my acquision list. Coming from you Stonehands, that is indeed high praise. I never thought George had the reflexes to carry off the crab defense that Archie had. I could understand how it might be effective for a short boxer trying to defend against uppercuts, but George was too tall for that to be practical. Archie did sustain an awfully long and busy career with it though, and never displayed any issues with brain damage. (I loved it, when during a prefight staredown, Archie would give his charge's opponent the evil eye right along with his boxer. This was especially entertaining before Eddie Mustafa Muhammad's match with Snipes. Staring down one set of eyes is one thing, but two?)

Arcel always spoke highly about Louis, and how, during pre-fight instructions, Joe would see Ray and say, "What, you here again?" Great anecdotes.

 

Can you give me the full titles of both these books, along with the author. Ive just pressed edit to add, Dave Anderson was spotted above.

"McIllanvey on Boxing" comes recommended. No doubt most of the fight reviews you'll know pretty well, but the journalism is unique.

 

My apologies! I meant "especially the FORMER"... Corner Men is superior in my opinion.

As to Moore's style... it is hard to fault anything about the style of a fighter with that kind of longevity but I fail to see how that defense was anything but a liability for him. Even Durell was able to punch around it and through it. I am a believer in the selective appearance of the pugilistica dementia gene. Some fighters have it (Bowe, Norris are notable recent fighters exhibiting symptoms) and some don't (Moore, Duran). Someday, medical science will be able to identify who has it and who doesn't and we'll call the ensuing era the "Great Resurgence"!)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Corner-Great-Boxing-Trainers-About/dp/0688094465/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-2202196-3214308?ie=UTF8&qid=1183929959&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Corner-Men-Great-Boxing-Trainers/dp/0941423484/ref=pd_sim_b_1_img/104-2202196-3214308?ie=UTF8&qid=1183929959&sr=8-1

 

Good! (Then I'm already over halfway there.)

This is a view widely held about the Quarry's, that they may have been especially predisposed to developing this condition. (When Willie Pep passed away, the anti-boxing press identified his cause of death as pugilistica dementia, but by age 84, I'm inclined to give Willie a free pass. If that old, anybody could be suffering the effects of senility. However, if I was Laila Ali, I'd be monitoring my neurological health very carefully, considering her father's Parkinsonian outcome.)

It doesn't seem though, that boxers of earlier eras were particularly inclined to develop issues with brain function earlier in life, despite competing infinitely more frequently than they have in recent decades.

 

This may be a matter of follow-up. I think that more fighters back then were forgotten. 1930 (when some of the pioneers were getting up there in age) wasn't exactly the communication age and people then were preoccupied with more immediate concerns back then.

 

The simple fact of increasing life expectancy and advances in diagnostic technology may also be a factor in heightened awareness of these issues. I strongly suspect though, that the far more painfully damaging impact of smaller gloves, boxers who didn't wear mouthpieces, or headgear in training, or the fact that smaller gloves made bodypunching a more viable tactic, or the absence of protective cups in earlier days, all resulted in individual punches being far more potentially damaging and painful, automatically assuring the development of hypervigilant defensive habits, which in turn helped safeguard against the risk of developing significant brain damage.

Individual hard punches don't harm human neurology as much a steady accumulation of blows. When boxers are wearing headgear in training, mouthpieces, protective cups, and spar against others who are wearing oversized and softly padded pillows on their hands for gloves, then there will be a greater tendency to evolve the habit of merely accepting a punch, instead of committing to a dedicated effort to avoid getting hit, and you're not supposed to get hit!!!! If an aspiring boxer can't progress to the point where he can defend himself adequately in sparring, without wearing any of these accoutrements, and be tough enough to forego them successfully in sparring, then he probably shouldn't be allowed to compete. Boxing is not a glorified macho pillowfight. (At least not quite yet, despite the efforts of emasulating and malignant reformers to castrate the very essence of boxing.)

 

... I sense the rumblings of a rampage! I read one of these by you and was highly entertained.

I tend to agree with you. Also, fighters were more willing to back away and were allowed to clinch far more. Of course, wrestling was part and parcel of sound strategy. I would also offer that it seems that the output then was also less because there were potentially far more rounds. I don't see what others claim on this site -short, destructive combinations of the kind that more modern punchers are prone to inflict. The gloves were also relatively like mittons, so even if they did, the fight was more likely to end.

 

As to the bad sparring habits -I heartily agree. When I spar, I even find it far more sensible to weave under a left hook than to block it! Why get hit at all!! All boxers should resent the idea of it...

It's almost Shakespearean... "hit but don't be hit."

 

LOL, those rumblings are probably coming from the heavy thunderstorm raging outdoors from where I sit at this moment.

Bob Fitzsimmons reportedly shattered an opponent's wrist with one of his punches, and we all know about the damage Marciano did to one of LaStarza's biceps in a round which Rocky was deducted for a low blow. (Considering the damage Marciano inflicted, who really won the round?)

Sure, if somebody can punch hard enough, the best thing to do is avoid the blow entirely, or at least redirect it's energy away by deflecting it. Savvy hard punchers will be aiming deliberately for those arms (like Sam Solomon had Leon Spinks do, whenever Ali tried the rope-a-dope in Neon's historic upset). When they're not aiming for the arms, they'll seek to connect solidly on other bodypart they can get away with. (An illegal but hard kidney shot or rabbit punch can decide an outcome.)

Jack Johnson's brand of defensive wizardry was largely based on reaching out to intercept a punch before it could gather any momentum. Nat Fleischer described Lil Artha' as being inclined to loaf, but I suspect that his manner of initiatory defensive tactics discouraged many of his opponents into a submissive offensive shell.

Ali's lean was harshly criticized, but like weaving under a hook, it was actually highly effective for making an opponent miss entirely, a far more draining experience than a direct hit on the arms, or some other nonscoring bodypart. (You know very well that a redirected punch can be every bit as tiring and demoralizing to an assailant as a complete miss.)

 

if it goes the distance,and is competitive(unlike spinks,say,though one judge still gave it to Ali!)Ali gets the decision.he got the benefit plenty of times,he was the sacred cow of boxing.
Ali didnt fancy this rematch at all.dont blame him.