Ali vs Frazier 1..THE FIGHT

I think you misunderstood. I said that I didnt think there was any evident ringrust. As I said before Ali was sharp in that fight. I do believe he underestimated Joe in the sense that he didnt think he could keep taking those punches without slowing down.

I also think that Ali was suprised at how fast Joe Frazier was. His lefthook was a whip that night. He tried to pull back from it but got caught over and over.

At the same time I think Frazier was suprised at Ali`s physical strength. He was just as strong as Joe. One of the reasons he was able to get throught those vicious rounds.

 

It's funny how you don't even have this argument in other cases. If a fighter comes back after a long lay-off it's taken for granted that he wasn't the same. But in thiss fight for some reason. No one would say Dempsey was prime against Tunney or Tyson was prime against Holyfield, but here people contort themselves to madness to make a case that Ali somehow hadn't lost anything, even though it's plain to see that he had.

For starters, Ali wasn't stronger or punched harder. He was 215, one pound heavier than against Chuvalo in 1966, and with the same amount of body fat as his younger self he'd probably be around 212 as he was back then.

In short, after the lay-off Ali has just lost a little bit of everything. He was not quite as fast, didn't have quite the same timing or reflexes, and didn't have the same stamina. I think that would have made the difference in what was a very tough and competitive battle as it was. Ali would do a couple of rounds more of moving and punching and a couple of rounds less of laying on the ropes and soaking up punishment. He would punch more with greater accuracy and get hit less.

 

Ali was in great shape, the Quarry and Bonavena fight and much training insured that. Vitali's comeback against Peter strait for the title with 4 years out is also very impressive. Ali was still a young man I think it was less than 3 years but I will check. Frazier went downhill after the FOTC, the fame and his lifestyle accelerated and he could never get back to that peak, Joe had a short prime. I think that version of Ali or the Foreman version would have beaten any other version, he was more mentally mature than the first Liston fight when Angelo had to push him out. Frazier would always be a style problem for Ali and anyone that could put that kind of pressure and pace with power. No shame in it...not many faced that Frazier.

 

Actually,

Smokin Joe Frazier was starting to slip.

'Smokin' Joe of 1968 thru early-1970 would have 'smashed' Mr. Ali by a
complete demolition job.

(see; Jimmy Ellis)

Sugar Ray Anderson, a Joe Frazier sparring partner, said Joe was not the elusive
fighter that he had been in 1968, 1969 and 1970, after he damaged his knee in
Las Vegas in 1970.

He was easier to hit, and though the power was there, the speed was not, as Joe
was not able to get as much 'torque' in his punch.

A quicker and more elusive 'Smokin Joe', would have stopped Muhammad Ali within
8 Rounds, as stated by Sugar Ray Anderson.

Joe was really a 5' 11 1/2" - 235 lb. 'Philly Meatball Hero', with a short 71" reach.

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Joe Frazier at 200 lbs.

A much leaner and quicker looking 'Smokin Joe'.

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Yep. And Clay getting liniment in his eyes against Liston was a stage ploy, inspired by pro wrestling, to cover up the fix.

 

My thoughts exactly,,,,,,

And 'Dark Gable' tried to go on Nutri-System to get ready for Larry Holmes.

 

Frazier did break his ankle in April 1970.

 

Frazier also had cataract in his left eye by the time Thrilla in Manilla happened, yet you don't see many people taking that fact into consideration.

 

Correct.

'Smokin Joe' attempted a James Brown shuffle, slide and spin move,
while performing with 'The Knockouts' at Caesar's Palace, on April 3, 1970.

He did a 'split' while jumping up in the air, and came down, only to fracture his right ankle.

'Smokin Joe' never moved that quick or fluid again.

 

Mathis went into the 11th in `68. He hit Joe with alot of clean shots in the early rounds.

 

Well Dempsey did come right out of a 3 year layoff and defended against Gene Tunney. Ali on the other hand beat 2 top 10 contender before he faced Frazier. He had just went 15 rounds in his previous fight.

That makes somewhat of a difference.

 

Just shows you how kick ass James Brown was. He pulled that move off for decades and a prime Frazier couldn't.

 

Yes Ali was faded but 2 points:

1. Ali did far better than given credit for and was way ahead after 7 rounds
2. After that Frazier took over, was it because Ali no longer had the stamina, Frazier's bodypunching or Frazier's own great stamina? I'd say all 3 of those played a role but believe the '67 Ali wins clearly despite being pushed hard

 

Biggest fight in my lifetime...I was born in the 1950's...