Ali vs. Holmes

He probably would have lost to Larry a couple of years earlier.Even prime it would have been a very close fight ,imo

 

He clearly lost to Doug Jones, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton in the 3rd fight.

Then you have the 2 fixed fights he "won" against Liston. There is overwhelming evidence both fights were fixed, and both should be moved to No contests. That totals 5 of his wins that I dont count.

His real record should be 51-8 (with the two Liston fights counting as NCs)

The greatest...My aris.

 

It would ,Larry's style ,jab ,chin and fighting heart always give s Ali one of the toughest fight s .Would have been interesting if Larry had come up the same time as ,say Frazier. Putting Holmes right at his prime facing Ali of about 70 /71 .

 

Holmes could have arguably beat Ali as early as 74.

 

With 10 Pro fights under his belt?

Nah.

 

I think it's fair to say he was fortunate to get the W against Young and Norton but he didn't "clearly" lose to Doug Jones and even if you take the line that the two Liston fights were fixed, which is highly debatable, what evidence is there that Ali was in any way involved? And NCs don't count as defeats so still not getting 4/5 extra defeats from that.

 

Yep, don't even go there mentioning 10 bouts.......

 

So yourself have "owned up" to 3. Thats just hilarious

So we only need to find 1 more to qualify for the 4-5

Even though we are conveniently ignoring the two fixed fights against Liston. And WTF does it matter whether Ali knew or not, I am pretty certain he didnt know in actual fact.

 

Do you have any proof these 2 Liston fights were fixed?

 

You have been following boxing for a long time John, and been on these forums as long as me. I was on these forums with another username right when it started. There is enough proof for me to be satisfied. There are direct quotes from mob figures saying that Liston's life was threatened unless he threw the fight. I am not going to dig them out now as I dont have the time. But we both know there is compelling evidence out there.

It all depends though on what you consider "proof". One mans proof is another mans speculation.

 

No, I said 2 - Young and Norton. I didn't say Ali lost to Jones. Close, competitive fight? Sure. Who doesn't have those at some point in their career? Doesn't mean he lost though. Saying the Liston fights count as defeats is obviously far fetched. So, no, I've said 2 fights only. That leaves 2/3 left.

 

Hey cheers mate. No doubt we bantered when you were in a different name.

Allow me to agree 100% on the rematch. Also allow me to disagree 110% on the initial bout. Also allow me to "prove" it.

Go and watch the entire period when Clay had trouble seeing after he became "blinded" either by crook or by accident. Have a look at the sheer BOMBS Liston threw in an attempt to take advantage of the situation and get him out of there. Clay at this point was completyely unproven in the durability stakes and probably even considered suspect. These bombs had the potential to be dare i say "probable" fight enders.

I would put a lot of money on the first fight being on the level. Liston had lost some drive and also underestimated Clay. I would put just as much or more on the rematch being a fix.

I am now pondering who the hell you were hahahaha

 

Holmes wasnt a body puncher he threw the body punches to spare Ali the head shots and asked Greene to stop the fight something Dundee wasnt willing to do as I elaborated on page 1.