Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

Firstly let me apologize for not replying to your quote many pages ago. I got lost in the rest of it. We've been on here a decade and a half together and I've never seen you get personal or even argue that i remember. You are one of my favorite posters for obvious reasons.

We will disagree a bit on this one and it's not carved in stone either way and open for debate for sure.

Liston is staring at and digesting the all important communication Walcott is having.

The action lasts about 5-6 seconds and that's not a long time to be on the defensive and not throw punches by any means imo.

Liston almost never held even when under a barrage of punches. It just wasn't his go - he backed his chin, defense and own arsenal when it was his turn to unleash. Under heavy attack he wasn't afraid to wait it out if suited and was never one for overly worrying about circling.

I've made a little clip from when he was under extremely heavy fire from Cleveland Williams. Notice that Liston doesn't remotely look to clinch, doesn't circle and doesn't counter. He gives ground (basically in a straight line), defends and waits for his chance exactly as he does against Ali. He is under fire for longer than he is against Ali and doesn't throw a punch during this time. When Williams pauses Liston then unleashes his own offensive fury.

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/4J5d61d7637493f

Now speaking from the position that i believe this fight is a fix (and Liston isn't hurt anywhere near as bad as he was implying when rolling around on the ground) why would Liston be looking to counter? With his power his plans could have potentially been ruined. Ali was still somewhat of an unknown quality chin wise and far from as proven on the durability front as what he would become.

For the record i don't think Liston looked very unsteady, just my opinion.

Ali throws 3 right hands in total prior to the KD punch. The first is the very first punch of the fight. It is somewhat similar to the KD punch and it probably barely landed if at all. He then lands a good right hand almost immediately which Liston imo easily shakes off. After a period of inaction he lands another good right and again Liston imo shows no effect at all. Liston then chases Ali for about 35 seconds and the KD punch is landed.

No disrespect but i am not seeing these couple of punches doing anything much to Liston.

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/Hb5d61e40687ea3

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/Hb5d61e4a47c626

And i respect that along with the measured opinions of others. Nothing is carved in stone.

Folley took substantial punishment in that fight. The first KD was from a similar punch but he had much better leverage on it and followed up as well. Folley was visibly tired at the end and had left a bit of himself on the floor earlier. He was also an old man (36 odd), not very durable and had been stopped many times dating back quite a long time. Williams as we know was in a very bad way by then.

I would readily agree Ali hit harder than many realize in these positions even if i disagree the Liston match was legit.

I've never seen anyone able to provide anything i'd remotely trust regarding the Marshall KD and have read a bit to the contrary. I don't believe it actually happened.

I'm of the opinion Liston had a superb chin when he was in his prime.

We will never know for sure and i respect your stance and opinion. No-one can say with any degree of sizable confidence.

 

Boxrec didn't mention it at all. Nor are there any official notes on it. I'd say Liston's chin was pretty undentable as a matter of fact I'd say it was among the best. He was only legitimately knocked out once while past his prime by ten years, 40 years old and had caught the cold. That by a viscous combo. One of the best I've seen. By a boxer who literally killed another man in the ring.

 

Boxrec doesn't always mention KD's that take place in fights, so I wouldn't consider that an airtight source. Liston had an excellent chin, sure...but he had been shaken a couple of times during his prime; and had been hurt in his previous fight with Ali. Plus, he was getting tagged by a shot he didn't see and couldn't defend and those are precisely the types of shots that can fell even the most durable fighters.

 

I bruise from a stern look, and on the same token I play innocent and back down.
Basically I'm accused of acting wrong in two totally opposite ways lol.

You're a decent dude, but in debates it's either your way or the highway, with little to no room for middle ground. Lose the attitude before you become a laughing stock!
Seriously. All the best to you.

 

There were articles regarding all three Liston Marshall bouts Posted in this forum years ago. Each from the time of the bouts. Marshall never knocked Liston down.

 

Interesting! Can you pull it up please? Would love to read it. My grandfather actually attended the 2nd fight!

 

I agree with this. An unanticipated blow always registers a reaction. A lot of early opponents quit on Ali because they could not see where the punches were coming from. they went down legitimately and could have gotten up and chose not to. It’s quite frightening to think a good shot might be coming and you won’t know where it is.

 

Here you go. Klompton posted these.

Fight 1
https://flic.kr/p/ZqJKqV
Fight 2
https://flic.kr/p/ZmpgJE
Fight 3
https://flic.kr/p/Yptgcr
https://flic.kr/p/ZmpbcN

Not exactly in-depth analysis of that second fight, but the best anyone's found.

 

I see the just-coming-back Foreman possibly getting beat/stopped. Bowe...the problem with both of those fighters (for Mike) is the uppercut, especially Bowe's (which was nearly as heavy and damned more accurate/fast than Big George's). Any fight proves how vulnerable Mike was to that punch (Lewis didn't have half the uppercut Bowe did, and he knocked Mike silly with it).

All I see is Mike trying to come in, perhaps even knocking Bowe down, but getting caught with that Bowe/Holyfield I uppercut and getting ruined.

Bowe could be at least as much a bully as Mike, and was far bigger. Whenever I watch Bowe/Holy one I can't reconcile that Bowe getting beat by Mike. The jab was too perfect (nearly Ali/Holmes level imo) and the uppercut too sneaky and destroying.

 

There probably was not much difference between Douglas and Bowe, I rate them of a similar level, so it is conceivable Bowe can be afforded equal chance against Tyson.

Douglas won because of a set of unusual circumstances that all favoured him that night. Right gameplan, focussed, perfect opponent selection and equal ring activity to Tyson, more competitive rounds in recent fights. 27 for Buster compared to just 7 for Tyson.

Without the recent competition Douglas cannot execute his perfect gameplan because it depended on him being the best he could be. and he had done more rounds than Tyson.

Although Bowe had all the same tools and similar size, I never was convinced he could emulate such a smart gameplan like Douglas did. The feints, the combinations, the use of creating those openings, the subtle stepping off after landing was much more sophisticated and disciplined than anything I ever saw Bowe do. And all of it was required to beat a prime Tyson who always did things a certain way.

Bowe was easier to hit than Douglas. He was good inside but he didn’t make the same angles, primarily he was there to trade, to exchange. His uppercut would work but so would Tyson’s. Speed confused Bowe against Hide. Slugging it out and swapping blows favours the man who dictates with faster hands. So He’s not going to outsmart Tyson and I think he would have to.

The key was outsmarting Tyson. In his championship years, Mike was programmed a certain way that he was used to working for him. He would dictate and had come to expect B to follow A and D to follow C. But if A was taken away from him he was lost. Douglas proved it.

 

Yeah he reminds me of Perry, who knew his stuff about old time boxing but often expressed his opinions like a pompous jackass to others who didn't live through it like he did but still dared to question him about it.

 

Good post. The punch was definitely legit. I think Walcott did a decent job as ref... until he actually stopped the fight. Walcott should have told Nat Fleischer to fvck off. Yeah, "but what about the timekeepers count... whatever! A fighter goes by the ref's count?" Whatever! A fighter who was just knocked down doesn't know if the ref picked up the timekeeper's count, nor should he care. Liston beat the ref's count and the fight continued... until Walcott gave in to the rich white man yelling from the crowd. Does this mean that Liston really wanted to continue? No, but he would have. A real fight may have broke out eventually but we will never know. I don't think there was a planned dive. Ali and Walcott were definitely not "in" on any dive. Was Liston? Maybe he planned in quitting if the going got tough but I don't think his intention was to quit leading up to the fight.

 

They are the same person.

 

Still waiting on the report you mentioned from the Bureau in 1975 saying the mob killed Hoffa and the indictments that came from their investigation.

 

The proof he said this to his close personal friends. What is your source for that? Even if true, doesn't carry the same weight as Ali's comments right then and there. Get up you bum, nobody will believe this.... walking back to his corner... He laid down. Those are said without having to mind your p's and q's and thinking about it later in life on what's best to say. What he believe right then and there was, that wasn't a KO punch. Period. Who cares what he said to his family years later, which again I'd like a source for that