Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

It’s not a published quote. It’s something he and my pops talked about. They were close friends for decades.

I personally trust Ali’s recollection over quotes from him seconds. Also there are several interpretations to those quotes that could point to Ali not thinking Liston threw the fight at the time. I don’t find them to be conclusive. Perhaps he expected a tougher resistance from Liston. Perhaps he was taunting him.

The two things I find most compelling are Ali’s opinions of the fight, and the fact that the FBI tried with all their might, and couldn’t find evidence of a fix. The FBI has a track record of producing their own fabricated evidence when they want to target an individual. The fact that they couldn’t find anything is very telling for me.

My personal take is that Ali knocked him down with a sharp counter punch. And the fight was called because of the combination of Listons lack of motivation, and officiating confusion.

 

They are certainly MORE conclusive than conversations he may or may not have had with your father, and his recollection of what Ali said after the fact. In the heat of the moment, just like in an argument, you can let how you really feel fly more freely than you might years later. When he was right then in there, in the moment, Ali didn't think the punch was a KO punch. That is indisputable by his comments. After the fact he no doubt realized it looks better and makes Ali look better to say it was a legit KO punch. I'll go with what Ali said right then and there while fresh in the moment decisively over what may or may not have been said to your dad years later

 

Unless you have an audio of his exact words your point is completely mute. Ali was quoted by multiple sources saying very different things. You PURPOSELY picking the words that are most headline grabbing shows that you are more interested in speculation that trying to find the truth.

Whether any indictments were made from FBI’s investigation into the Hoffa disappearance is again a mute point. THE point is that the FBI from the very top of the organization investigated this fight and found zip to back up your side of the argument. Unless you can show an official investigation that proved there was a fix you have no ground to stand upon. This is typical of the uneducated.

 

We have Ferdie Pacheco who was in Ali's corner.Is that conclusive enough for you?

ps Best not to call people "uneducated" when you spell moot , mute!

 

Ali was nowhere near his corner when he was standing over Liston and had his back turned to them. That's without mentioning the fact that it wasn't until years later that Pacheco came up with this quote which flatly contradicts the ringside reports which were published the next day.

 

Pacheco was never a reliable source of information. Don’t forget he was the one who wrote that he saw Willard’s xrays taken after his bout with Dempsey and described all his broken bones. To this day Pacheco is the only person who ever claimed to see Willard’s xrays. Hardly credible.

 

Are you saying Pacheco did not hear that quote and is lying for some reason? Papers were printing these remarks weeks after the fight.

 

He saw Willard’s x-rays? When?

 

I find him a bit more reliable than yourself. Can you give us a source for Pacheco claiming to have seen Willards X rays?

 

Incorrect. This is the sequence

You said: The FBI investigated this fight and found nothing was wrong with it, thus you said it PROVED the fight wasn't fixed.

I say: The FBI investigates stuff all the time and don't always get to the truth, come to a conclusion or get indictments, but that doesn't mean nothing happened or nobody was guilty. For example, look at Hoffa, and the investigated that to death and came down on nobody.

You said: That is untrue, in 1975 the FBI concluded that Hoffa was killed by the MOB, but when they investigated the Ali vs. Liston fight they came out with no conclusion. Thus it was a legit KO.

I say: Please post proof of this report that the FBI came out with in 1975 saying the MOB killed Hoffa, and the indictments that came from them.

You say: That is a moot point and doesn't matter and produce nothing.

So do you concede that the FBI can investigate something and come to no conclusion about anybody being guilty, when in fact there is somebody that is guilty but their investigation couldn't conclude that? Which again is the point. Just because the FBI investigates something and doesn't file any indictments doesn't mean nothing happened. Correct?

 

It appears to be a recurring theme ,Houdini claims something,gets called to produce verified proof of it and fails to do so!

 

Which reports do you speak of that contradict this, and please post them. What Ali said about Liston laying down was when he GOT back to his corner, not when he was standing over Liston.

 

In one of his books Pacheco describes looking at Willard’s xrays.

 

As I stated the FBI investigated the Ali Liston bout in 1965 and found no evidence of a fix. Where is your formal official investigation that proves the bout was fixed. We are waiting. If the FBI did find the bout was fixed you would be first to pint it out. Where is your evidence?

 

So am I accepting another concession of yours then?