Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

LOL

You have zero evidence except cherry picked words Ali was supposed to have said. Tell everyone why you chose those specific sentences vs all the others Ali was quoted as saying?

Everything else including an official investigation proves the truth. Liston was hit by a punch he never saw coming which ended the fight.

 

FBI SPENT OVER A YEAR INVESTIGATING ALI-LISTON II

Sonny Liston Fight

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Two days after the fight, the FBI sent an internal memo about dedicating resources to investigate the rumors:

“As you know, the Liston-Clay (Muhammad Ali) fight has received wide publicity by all forms of news media. Included in the publicity have been what appear to be unsubstantiated allegations by sports writers and persons long associated with the fight game that this fight was “fixed.” Since we have received no information or allegations indicating improprieties in connection with this fight, no open investigation is being conducted. It is felt, however, that appropriate confidential informants and sources located in logical offices should be discreetly contacted for information on this matter.”

Despite a lack of evidence, J. Edgar Hoover’s office insisted that the investigation continue into one of boxing’s most storied fights.

The FBI chased rumor after rumor until closing the investigation about 13 months after it began. No evidence was found that indicated the bout was fixed.

Ali was the subject of constant FBI scrutiny because of his ties to the Nation of Islam.

 

Much appreciated my good man!

 

That's not specific enough.I have two books by Pacheco,Fight Doctor which concentrates on his time with Ali and does not mention Willard,
and The 12 Greatest Rounds Of Boxing which does ,it says this. about Willard's X Rays.
"Reports of his injuries varied and the use of X Rays was primitive at the time ,but any way you cut it an enormous amount of damage was produced in a single round.
NOWHERE IN THE BOOK DOES PACHECO CLAIM TO HAVE SEEN THE X RAYS!

ps Pacheco repeats Ali's words in this book too.As Liston lies on the canvas,Ali shouts down to him "Get up you bum .No one will believe this .Get up!"
Why would he lie about this?

 

That article is imo a pile of kack.If memory serves one of the 4 mentioned is Bert Whitehurst who twice went the distance with Sonny.
What the article does not mention is that Whitehurst ran all night in their first fight.Here is a quote from George Gainsford Whitehurst's manager talking about Whitehurst coming back to the corner after the first round."His nose was badly swollen,and he kept shaking his head as if he couldn't believe it"Whats the matter I asked him." His jab,its like a sledge hammer"Gainsford said to him,"Kid this is a situation that calls for drastic action,stay out of range and never stand still for a second".To get Whitehurst back in the ring Liston' s team offered $5000. Whitehurst told Gainsford he thought he could last the distance with Sonny again ,not win ,just last the distance .Six months later they met again Liston gave Whitehurst a severe lacing knocking him out of the ring in the last round Whitehurst was still trying to get back in the ring after referee Harry Kessler's count of 8 when the final bell rang saving Whitehurst from a ko.What trouble?
The only source for Marshall knocking Liston down is Marshall himself.
Liston floored Marshall 4 times for 9 counts in rd 5 and 3 times in rd 6 to end the fight .In their third and final fight Marshall did not win a round and ran like a thief all night! What trouble?
ps Liston is suspected having carried Marshall in their 3rd fight.


Liston also floored Marshall in the 1st rd of their 1st fight. He lost a split dec fighting with a broken jaw .

 

No problem.


Tim Moriarty of the United Press had it as "Get up, get up!"

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MT19650526.2.46

Leo Petersen, also of the United Press, also had "Get up, get up!"

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aggrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pZkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6255,6667960

The Associated Press had "Get up and fight, you bum!" (in fairness it's not clear if the reporter is saying he heard this himself or if he's just quoting Ali's own version)

https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bin/illinois?a=d&d=DIL19650527.2.57

Jersey Joe Walcott - in a better position to hear than anyone - said it was "Get up, get up - get up and fight!"

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19650527.1.35

Tex Maule of Sports Illustrated had "Get up and fight, sucker!"

https://www.si.com/vault/1965/06/07/607743/muhammad-ali-sonny-liston-second-fight

Local paper the Lewiston Daily Sun had "Get up!"

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-UIpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xmYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5263,3814157


It may be that someday someone will find a contemporary report which supports the "Nobody will believe this!" quote. That would at least put it on the same level as these others. Until then we have to treat it with the same scepticism that we'd treat any other version of events which didn't appear until years after the event itself.

 

Doesn't the fact that Ali is seen motioning Liston to rise and shouting," get up get up " at least indicate he wasn't convinced Liston was hurt?

 

To be honest with you, I'm not denying that Ali was surprised Liston went down. I'm just triggered by people supporting that view with a quote which I strongly suspect is inaccurate.

 

We have the referee Walcott saying Ali shouts," Get up get up",.We have cornerman Pacheco saying he shouts ,"get up you bum nobody will believe this",We have ringside writer Izenberg saying he shouts" get up nobody will believe this ".Making allowances for minor discrepancies between the actual words I think we have the essential gist of the quote don't you? And the implication behind it ie" Get up you're not hurt".As in ,you are tanking .I find that a reasonable attitude to take on it.I think Liston stayed down when he could have got to his feet something he never denied.My interpretation is , he begins to get up then, after thinking about it decides to slump back down,I find his whole movements singularly unconvincing.I also find it rather beside the point that the FB I came away with no conclusive evidence, who would have expected them to? Unless one of the participants admits to taking a dive what evidence can you have?
We know many of Carnera's fights were pre-arranged but we don't have concrete proof of such.

 

I don't understand why you guys even bother discussing things with Houdini.
If the man cannot have the common decency to quote a person then it tells me a lot about what kind of human being he is.

I dread to think what it must have been like for any children growing up in his home.

 

I find it amazing that the most obvious thing staring everybody in the face, is still being debated.
It's the most conclusive thing in the whole debate.

 

Even what you posted heavily implies he didn't believe he should be on the floor rolling around giving an acting performance. When he's confident he puts someone down, he gloats and raises his hands with no doubt they should be down. Telling somebody get up, get up and fight... clearly implies he believes Liston could get up and should get up because it wasn't a KO blow. When you tell someone get up and fight, it's usually because you believe they can and are purposely staying down. You don't say that to someone KO'd on the floor or clearly hurt.

 

Its one of many interpretations of a quote.
It is not definitive whatsoever.

For instance it could have been in the context of telling him to get up so he can whip him some more. Or maybe Ali finally felt that he truly conquered the most fearful man in the division and by yelling Get Up after a first round KD he was flexing his dominance.

This matchup was also a rivalry, with a lot of out of the ring things boiling up, such as Ali showing up to Listons home. He could have simply been taunting him.

A boxer telling a rival to “Get up!” after putting him on the canvas doesn’t indicate a fix.

 

How can a simple taunt of “Get up!” be more conclusive then an aggressive investigation by the FBI finding nothing?

 

That’s fair that you would take his word on the night over what he believed later in life.

The problem is what he said that night doesn’t point to Ali claiming Liston threw the fight. He said “Get Up!” Not “He threw the fight!” Or “It’s a fix!”

“Get up!” is something you could say to a rival after dominating them early in a fight. Everyone feared Liston, including Ali. To have a boxer defeat him so quick and motioning to them to get up and fight is an iconic moment of a boogeyman being completely dominated.

The FBI didn’t find Ali saying “Get Up!” As conclusive evidence of a fix, because using a quote like that to make a case of a fix doesn’t hold any water. And there’s a reason it doesn’t hold any water. There’s a reason why a corrupt agency with unwieldily power and overzealous intentions wouldn’t use that as evidence.