Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

I think it was a combination of a punch that dropped and dazed him, his lack of fighting spirit for that fight, and officiating confusion.

Also you mentioned that people on your side of the argument don't believe it was a fix, or that Liston threw the fight, but it seems as though some of them do.

"I think he laid down to orders." - Tonto.
So that's why I was arguing against that possibility as well.

 

I think a good argument trumps a personal attack.
And if im not being personally attacked, I have no reason to attack others over a disagreement.
Especially when those people are sticking to the debate like several of you are.

Right, he showed up at his home before the first fight, but its the same deep bitter rivalry.

Not that I think you're wrong, but any way you can point me to the "he laid down," quote?
He could've meant that Liston didn't give it his all.
He could be pointing to when Liston rolled on his back, which I believe Sonny claimed he did because Ali was rushing at him.
Perhaps Ali didn't realize that Liston rolled because he was running towards him.

 

Why are you changing the subject?

You are saying the Ali Liston 1965 bout was fixed. Unfortunately there has been an in-depth investigation of this bout encompassing 13 months AND NO EVIDENCE OF A FIX WAS FOUND.

Period and end of discussion.

If you have an official investigation that proves your belief then let everyone know. If you don’t start twisting in the wind. Stop believing in things without evidence to support them.

 

Nobody is changing anything. You have CONTINUOUSLY repeated that you believe THAT blow was a KO blow and Liston wasn't acting nor fixing the fight. That has been your stance the entire time. One of my first posts in this thread is:

I'm very clearly disagreeing with any notion that this was a KO blow, and have been very consistent on this subject since the start of the thread. Nobody knows if there was a fix, threats, or he just laid down. Nobody has definitively said one way or another way he stayed down, but the one thing we've consistently said (which you've consistently disagreed with) is that it was a KO blow. Period. That is EXACTLY what we've been saying this entire time, and you've had the opposite stance. In that regard, logic is not on your side.

 

You’re an idiot.

Your stance is the fight was fixed. You use as your only talking point what Ali supposedly screamed at Liston as he lay on the canvas.

Unfortunately for you depending on your source, and Ferdie Pacheco is a real poor one, Ali yelled different things. In a court of law or any debate if that’s your only evidence you have no evidence. It’s contradictory in nature and inadmissible.

You know you have nothing to support your theory so you change the subject. Not under my watch you don’t.

My stance is the fight was not fixed and the right hand Ali hit Liston with was absolutely legitimate. My evidence is as I have outlined including an official 13 month FBI investigation that concluded there was no evidence of a fix. To counter this official investigation you must show a similar official investigation that determined there was a fix. If you don’t have that type of evidence get off my block as you are wasting everyone’s time.

 

Not on my watch LOL you're a clown. We know logic is outside of your watch for one thing, and I guess we need to add reading comprehension. I've consistently said I disagree with any notion that the blow landed was enough to KO Liston. Ali yelling for him to get up you bum, nobody is going to believe, could mean fix, it could mean he knew he was laying down, but one thing is for certain, it means he didn't believe the blow was enough to KO Liston. Something I have repeatedly said over and over in this thread. For your studies, I'm going to simplify this for you, I don't know WHY Liston stayed down and started flailing and rolling around, I only believe that what landed was not a KO blow. Simple. Now, on the contrary you've taken the EXACT opposite stance, which is, the blow landed was indeed a KO blow and Liston had no choice but to stay down. You even mention him staggering going back to his corner. You mention how Liston mentions how hard Ali hit. We all know the terrible mess you made out of the whole FBI thing, but again, you were using to prove that was a blow hard enough to KO Liston.

Study Material:

You believe that the blow landed by Ali, on Liston, was indeed hard enough to have him roll around like that and get KO'd

I believe that the blow landed was NOT hard enough to KO Liston, and the reaction I saw, was more of a choosing to stay down for whatever reason.

I've been very consistent, as have you, about the above. You know what time it is right?

 

I've only seen it once or twice but it looked like bs to me I need to see it again thought

 

Just for added context:

The FBI was founded by J Edgar Hoover.
Hoover was still running the FBI during the Ali-Liston investigation.

Hoover personally penned an anonymous letter to MLK, posing as a black man trying to convince King to kill himself.
Hoover intervened to prevent federal prosecution of the KKK members who committed the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing.

After the FBI failed to produce evidence of a fix, the head office (Hoovers) told them to keep looking.
They found nothing.

 

Well, whether the fix was in, or wasn't in, the punch wasn't a knockout punch.
There are two different arguments going on here.

 

I think its basically one poster making these claims that Liston was out and also exaggerrating what others like Jose Torres said.
For example Torres said he thought it was a decent punch but also said," I dont know if it was hard enough to stop Liston".he posted the first part of the quote but not the part where Torres expressed doubts about the effect the punch had.

 

The FBI investigated both Ali v Liston fights.I have zero confidence in the efficiency and probity of the Bureau under the direction of Hoover. Under the tranny Hoover the Mafia flourished undisturbed for years.Maybe they had photos of him and Clyde Tolson in their cocktail dresses?

"However, Ali was unsure immediately after the fight as to whether or not the punch connected, as footage from the event shows Ali in the ring asking his entourage, "Did I hit him?" Ali told Nation of Islam minister Abdul Rahman that Liston "laid [[url]sic[/url]] down" and Rahman replied, "No, you hit him." Rahman later said, "Ali hit him so fast, Ali didn't really know he hit him. ... and It took a long time before even he saw the punch he hit Sonny with."[url][48][/url] Tellingly, Ali never threw the 'anchor punch' again nor did he subsequently refer to it.[url][23][/url]

"It was a good right-hand punch," Liston said after the fight. "It made me groggy. I got to my knees but fell the second time because I was off balance. ... I could have got up, but I didn't hear the count."

"Ali initially stood over his fallen opponent, gesturing and yelling at him, "Get up and fight, sucker!" "Nobody will believe this!"[url][43][/url] The moment was captured by ringside photographer [url]Neil Leifer[/url] in what became one of the most iconic images in sport"



After the fight, [url]George Chuvalo[/url] climbed through the ropes and shoved Ali, yelling, "Fix!" He was restrained, but later he said that he had seen Liston's eyes while the challenger was on the floor, and he knew that he was not in bad shape.


Wilfred Sheed offered his opinion in his 1975 book, Muhammad Ali: A Portrait in Words and Photographs, writing that Liston was going to throw the fight going in and, when he suffered a legitimate flash knockdown in round one, decided on the spot to seize the opportunity and end the fight. It was Walcott's confusion and Ali's behavior that forced Liston to feign disorientation for far longer than a knockdown of that type would have caused.

During a 1995 [url]HBO[/url] documentary about Liston, Johnny Tocco, who owned a boxing gym in Las Vegas, said he spoke with mobster [url]John Vitale[/url] before the rematch and was told not to pay any attention to what he heard about the fight. He also told Tocco that he should be glad that he wasn't going to Lewiston. When Tocco asked why, Vitale told him that the fight was going to end in the first round.

During the same documentary, former FBI agent William F. Roemer Jr. said, "We learned that there very definitely had been a fix in that fight." He said Bernie Glickman, a boxing manager from Chicago with mob ties, claimed that while he was conversing with Liston and his wife before the fight, Liston's wife told the ex-champion that as long as he had to lose the fight, he should go down early to avoid any chance of getting hurt.

In the wake of the controversial fight, there was an outcry by press and politicians for the abolition of boxing. Bills to ban the sport were planned in several state legislatures.

A promoter in San Antonio apologized to his theater TV customers and, on the basis that they had been defrauded by a "shameful spectacle," donated his take to boys' clubs. The California legislature, in session, received a resolution calling for an investigation by the state attorney general to determine if its closed-circuit viewers had been fraudulently duped out of their money.[url][52][/url]

For those who believe that Liston took a dive, there are a number of theories as to why, including: (1) The Mafia forced Liston to throw the fight as part of a betting coup. (2) Liston bet against himself and took a dive because he owed money to the Mafia. (3) A couple of members of the Nation of Islam visited Liston's training camp and told Liston they would kill him if he won the rematch. (4) Author Paul Gallender claims that members of the Nation of Islam kidnapped Liston's wife, Geraldine, and Liston's son, Bobby. Liston was told to lose the fight to Ali or he would never see his family again.[url][53][/url] (5) Liston was afraid that he would be accidentally shot by followers of Malcolm X as they tried to kill Ali in the ring. There were also claims attributed to Liston and others that he threw the fight in return for a share of the more marketable Ali's future purses.[url][54][/url] Credence to these claims is provided by the fact that after his last fight, with Chuck Wepner, Liston seemed more preoccupied in supporting the proposed Ali-Frazier bout and Ali's claims to the title than about his own career.[url][55][/url] In the final analysis, it remains inconclusive whether the blow in Lewiston was a genuine knockout punch.[url][56][/url] The fact that Liston didn't complain about the clear breach of boxing rules (being declared knocked out without a count) and Ali's obvious state of bewilderment, shouting at Liston "Nobody will believe this" and asking his handlers "Did I hit him?" confirmed most people's belief that Liston took a dive

 

You're the liar who said Pacheco claimed to have seen Jess Willard's X rays and tried to use this lie to cast doubt on Pacheco's quotes regarding Ali's remarks, something he never did. You're the liar who claimed Seamus called Kovalev an all time great.
Now you self righteously demand evidence of a investigation?
You are a liar, a hypocrite ,and a moral coward !
For Your Information . You pompous wind bag the FBI denied the existence of the MAFIA for 40 years!
I wouldn't call on them to investigate a dogs turd!

 

I never used the words , " to orders".

 

I haven't seen a good argument from Houdini and he initiated the personal attacks,which doesn't bother me in the slightest because I can take very good care of myself in any verbal disputes here!
Especially when engaging with a little turnip who call others uneducated and then spells MOOT, MUTE!

 

I just copied and pasted it from your post:

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