Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

It's easy, and you can see it on the film... Liston was rolling around doing his best acting routine expecting to be counted out. He even looks at the ref as he's dealing with Ali, and is like, oh okay, well I guess I better get up cause he isn't even counting me out yet and it will be rather obvious if I continue to stay down. So he got up, and I believe he just figured, ok, I'll go down at some other point where the ref can actually count me out. Don't see much mystery there imo.

 

Not true. Sports illustrated right after the fight as well as Patterson, DeMato and Torres absolutely felt the KO was legit.

 

As I said before, he probably got up because he realized he'd been down for WAY over 10 seconds and the ref hadn't even started counting yet. So he would know that all the acting and fumbling around he was doing would look even worse if he just continued to sit there on his hands and knees that long. So he thought, well, guess I have to try again and find another time. It certainly doesn't exclude it being a fix because he decided to get back up after he realized his KO plan had been foiled by the ref and ali.

 

They felt the impact of the punch?

 

Experts watched the punch land. Floyd Patterson, Cus DeMato and Jose Torres. The SI writer stated that from there position at ringside those seated around them saw a KO blow. Thus the idea that no one called this fight legit at that time is an inaccurate statement. Both Ali Liston 1 and 2 were investigated at that time and no evidence of a fix was determined.

 

Well for the 2nd fight I think Sonny lay down.
Whether it was because the fix was in or he simply decided he wanted no part of Ali I wouldn’t know.

 

So it's your belief the punch that landed made it so that Liston couldn't have continued?

 

The evidence strongly dictates that the bout was legit. Liston was hit hard by the type of punch Ali knocked out other fighters such as Zora Foley. Top rung experts at ringside who were in a position to see the punch called it a KO blow. Liston staggers mid ring once the bout is stopped. His legs appear to spasm as he rolled into his back and he asked for smelling salts once back in his dressing room with no one around aside from his corner. Slow motion viewing of the KO shows Listons head/jaw jerking violently from the blow.

 

So by your own admission Ali and Walcott clearly had no clue Liston was taking a dive. There was clearly no prior communication between them as the entire scene became chaos.

Anyway, i already said in my post its definitely possible Liston exaggerated how badly he was hurt. But a "fix" by definition implies both parties arranged for a clear, scripted loser. Again, the actions of literally everyone involved (other than Liston) makes it clear nobody expected that to happen.

Do you think it's logical Ali was in on it and made off with millions on the side in some sort of gambling scam? The same Ali who intentionally allowed himself to be stripped on religious grounds sabatoging his own future potential paydays? He'd have to be a complete idiot to be involved in a fix and then stand over the opponent wasting time instead of letting the ref count.

The best you could argue is that Liston took a dive either in the heat of the moment (simply quitting) or planned to beforehand. I personally think the phantom punch was legitimate but question wether Liston was as badly huet as he claimed. It came from his blind spot, a perfect right cross counter, and Liston was possibly in his late 30's or even 40's at this point and had lost a lot of heart due to the pressure from a population who hated him, the government, the black Muslims, his orior humiliating loss, etc. He could have cashed out betting against himself knowing how absurd it would be for a fighter as notorious and scary as himself who demoloshed Patterson/Williams/Folley/etc to be stopped in 1 round.

 

No...But Liston did. He also appeared rattled by a couple of previous rights than Ali landed earlier in the round.

 

The people who thought the fight was fixed said that the punch never even connected.
The film clearly shows a punch connect. If they didn't think a punch connected when it so clearly did, what does that say about the credibility on their recollections?
And the punch doesn't just connect, it snaps and rattles Listons head, and he drops instantaneously.
The knockdown looks legit.

Liston then starts to rise, but Ali runs towards him celebrating/taunting.
It doesn't matter that it was Ali, when a boxer in a ring starts charging at you while you're trying to get up, instinct kicks in.
And Liston went back on the mat. This is his "acting" people refer to.
There is confusion with the timekeeping. He gets up again, dazed. Proceeds to put his guard up and the fight is called.

 

You know what? This and the other posts had me rewatch the fight and aftermath...you folks are right, forgive me.

Liston was definitely up and ready to fight, the count shouldn't have been confused like that. Ali was obviously about to stick his foot up Liston's ass.

I was wrong, I don't think this was a fix. Why would Liston have gotten up at all if it was?

 

Exactly. Why get up at all if he was completely clear headed and perfectly fine?

Imagine rigging a basketball game and then all of a sudden near the end of the 4th quarter, some idiot on the losing team scores a basket and ties up the game. Thats basically what happened with Liston standing up and Ali wasting time yelling at him.

If they were honestly trying to rig the fight, then it makes JR Smith's blunder look like a move executed ny Bobby Fischer. Unless you honestly think Liston and Ali were both complete morons...?

 

It also gets to me, that Ali would have spent so much time wailing over the carcass if it was a fix...wouldn't he be concerned with getting to t he corner as soon as possible to NOT impeded the count?

I'm mostly convinced...has anyone ever likened the phantom punch with what Foreman did to Moorer? I mean, there were obviously punches thrown in both fights, but they do seem to have that parallel. Seemingly little visible effort went into the punches that floored both of them.

That said, it is more than likely both Foreman and Ali hit those guys with a shot they never saw (the videos do bear this out some). And those can be the most devastating.

 

I've seldom to never seen it claimed Ali was in on it. A "fix" imo doesn't have to be between the two fighting parties it only need be between one party and another. Liston could only loll around on the floor for so long particularly given it was a very very light punch imo. There was also so much confusion going on especially given he wasn't being counted. He was acutely interested in the sideshow after rising.